I see the Pause AI protests and I cringe. They give me the same feeling I get when I see vegans walk into McDonald’s covered in blood. It feels like:
“oh, look. A group that I am a part of is now going to be tied to this small groups actions. That kinda sucks because I wouldn’t do that myself. Totally get their feeling though. Good for them sorta maybe, but also please stop.”
I understand that Scott Alexander talked about PETA and animal ethics a while ago. But I think AI safety has an opportunity right now to take a different approach than PETA had to.
People are already scared. This doesn’t impact “the other” this impacts them. Make that clear. But make it clear is a way that your uncle won’t laugh at over Christmas dinner.
Edit: I just reread this and feel it was a bit harsh on the PAI people. I’m sorry about that. I’d like to point to Chris_Leong’s comment below. It offers something that feels like a better critique than the one I made originally.
Make that clear. But make it clear is a way that your uncle won’t laugh at over Christmas dinner.
Most people agree with Pause AI. Most people agree that AI might be a threat to humanity. The protests may or may not be effective, but I don’t really think they could be counterproductive. It’s not a “weird” thing to protest.
That’s interesting that you don’t consider it a “”weird” thing to protest”.
I guess I want to explicitly point that part out and ask if you stand by the statement? Or maybe I define weird differently? To me weird inside this context means:
“A thing or action that is out of the ordinary in a way that someone encountering it for the first, second, or third time, wouldn’t see as quirky. But as a red flag. If not pre-attached to that thing or person performing the action, a the person seeing it for the first time might form a negative opinion based on the feeling they get seeing it”
What is it about the PauseAI protests that gives you the same feeling that the animal rights protesters covered in blood give you?
I agree that we should avoid covering ourselves in blood (or similar).
But so far, all we’ve done is wear shirts, talk to the public, hand out leaflets, hold signs, give speeches, and chant.
Personally, I don’t find any of those activities cringy, with the exception of a few chants that didn’t catch on and awkwardly petered out. But perhaps you’ve seen something in person or on video that I haven’t?
Hi! Thank you very much for taking the time to write such a considered response to my ramble of a comment.
Your first question is a hard one to express in text. Instead, I’ll try hard to write a list of requirements for a situation to generate that feeling for me. Then you might be able to image a scenario that meets the requirements and get a similar feeling?
Requirements:
I must deeply care about the core idea of the subject. For example, I deeply care about animals not coming to harm, or about the world being destroyed by ASI.
I must disagree with the way it is being protested. For example, the use of loudspeakers, or shouting. Seeming angry gives a sense of irrationality, even if the idea itself is rational.
I have only seen this in twitter feed context
I am already scared of the reaction my employer, family, or friends would have if I expressed the idea. For example, I’m afraid when I have to tell a waiter at a restaurant that I’m vegan, because it is a “weird” idea. “Weird” defined above.
What I’ve seen:
Again, just on twitter
Extremely small protest groups reminds me of all the antivax or 5G protests I’ve seen irl
Loudspeakers and yelling
Leaders on loudspeakers addressing individual open AI employees from outside of gates. In what seems to be a threatening tone. While not necessarily being threatening in context.
Protestors not taking the inferential distance into account. Which I assume would lead to a confused public. Or individuals presuming the protestors are Luddites.
Thank you again for your reply. I enjoyed having to make this as explicit as possible. Hopefully it helps make the feeling I have clearer.
And thanks you for doing something. I’m not doing anything. I think something is better than nothing.
I sympathise with your feelings around veganism—I too feel a bit awkward saying the V word in some contexts. Some of those feelings are probably down to an internalised veganphobia that I can’t shake off despite having been vegan for 4 years. I’m not sure how relevant the vegan/animal rights analogy is to AI safety. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Pause is already a popular idea, veganism is not. That probably gives pause advocates some leeway to be bit more annoying.
When trying to change the world, you need to make a trade-off between annoyingness/publicity and obscurity/respectability.
On one extreme, you never mention your issue unless asked. No one listens to you.
On the other extreme, you scream your issue into people’s faces in Times Square whilst covered in your own faeces and stream everything on YouTube. No one takes you seriously.
There’s a sweet spot somewhere in the middle of the two.
Although, of course, the details can always be improved, so I appreciate your thoughts. My hunch is that we’re probably at around about the right level of annoyingness. (although my personal preference to avoid being seen as weird may bias me against adopting more annoying tactics—even if they have higher expected value).
The thing that got me was Pause AI trying to coalition with people against AI art. I don’t really have anything against the idea of a pause but Pause AI seems a bit simulacrum level 2 for me.
I think it comes down to exactly how the protests run.
I’m not a fan of chants like “Pause AI, we don’t want to die” as that won’t make sense to people with low context, but there’s a way of doing protesting that actually builds credibility. For example, I’d recommend avoiding loudspeakers and seeming angry vs. just trying to come across as reasonable.
IMO I’d feel a lot better if it was less angryish. I think there probably is something like a protest that I can imagine working. I’m not sure if I’d call it a protest? Unless, have you got example protests?
I can image a “change my mind” type of stall/stalls. Where people have calm conversations to explain the situation to the public.
I think it’s fine to call it a protest, but it works better if the people are smiling and if message discipline is maintained. We need people to see a picture in the newspaper and think “those people look reasonable”. There might be a point where the strategy changes, but for now it’s about establishing credibility.
I see the Pause AI protests and I cringe. They give me the same feeling I get when I see vegans walk into McDonald’s covered in blood. It feels like: “oh, look. A group that I am a part of is now going to be tied to this small groups actions. That kinda sucks because I wouldn’t do that myself. Totally get their feeling though. Good for them sorta maybe, but also please stop.”
I understand that Scott Alexander talked about PETA and animal ethics a while ago. But I think AI safety has an opportunity right now to take a different approach than PETA had to.
People are already scared. This doesn’t impact “the other” this impacts them. Make that clear. But make it clear is a way that your uncle won’t laugh at over Christmas dinner.
Edit: I just reread this and feel it was a bit harsh on the PAI people. I’m sorry about that. I’d like to point to Chris_Leong’s comment below. It offers something that feels like a better critique than the one I made originally.
Most people agree with Pause AI. Most people agree that AI might be a threat to humanity. The protests may or may not be effective, but I don’t really think they could be counterproductive. It’s not a “weird” thing to protest.
That’s interesting that you don’t consider it a “”weird” thing to protest”.
I guess I want to explicitly point that part out and ask if you stand by the statement? Or maybe I define weird differently? To me weird inside this context means:
“A thing or action that is out of the ordinary in a way that someone encountering it for the first, second, or third time, wouldn’t see as quirky. But as a red flag. If not pre-attached to that thing or person performing the action, a the person seeing it for the first time might form a negative opinion based on the feeling they get seeing it”
(PAI person here)
What is it about the PauseAI protests that gives you the same feeling that the animal rights protesters covered in blood give you?
I agree that we should avoid covering ourselves in blood (or similar).
But so far, all we’ve done is wear shirts, talk to the public, hand out leaflets, hold signs, give speeches, and chant.
Personally, I don’t find any of those activities cringy, with the exception of a few chants that didn’t catch on and awkwardly petered out. But perhaps you’ve seen something in person or on video that I haven’t?
Hi! Thank you very much for taking the time to write such a considered response to my ramble of a comment.
Your first question is a hard one to express in text. Instead, I’ll try hard to write a list of requirements for a situation to generate that feeling for me. Then you might be able to image a scenario that meets the requirements and get a similar feeling?
Requirements:
I must deeply care about the core idea of the subject. For example, I deeply care about animals not coming to harm, or about the world being destroyed by ASI.
I must disagree with the way it is being protested. For example, the use of loudspeakers, or shouting. Seeming angry gives a sense of irrationality, even if the idea itself is rational.
I have only seen this in twitter feed context
I am already scared of the reaction my employer, family, or friends would have if I expressed the idea. For example, I’m afraid when I have to tell a waiter at a restaurant that I’m vegan, because it is a “weird” idea. “Weird” defined above.
What I’ve seen:
Again, just on twitter
Extremely small protest groups reminds me of all the antivax or 5G protests I’ve seen irl
Loudspeakers and yelling
Leaders on loudspeakers addressing individual open AI employees from outside of gates. In what seems to be a threatening tone. While not necessarily being threatening in context.
Protestors not taking the inferential distance into account. Which I assume would lead to a confused public. Or individuals presuming the protestors are Luddites.
Thank you again for your reply. I enjoyed having to make this as explicit as possible. Hopefully it helps make the feeling I have clearer.
And thanks you for doing something. I’m not doing anything. I think something is better than nothing.
Thanks for explaining more.
I sympathise with your feelings around veganism—I too feel a bit awkward saying the V word in some contexts. Some of those feelings are probably down to an internalised veganphobia that I can’t shake off despite having been vegan for 4 years. I’m not sure how relevant the vegan/animal rights analogy is to AI safety. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Pause is already a popular idea, veganism is not. That probably gives pause advocates some leeway to be bit more annoying.
When trying to change the world, you need to make a trade-off between annoyingness/publicity and obscurity/respectability.
On one extreme, you never mention your issue unless asked. No one listens to you.
On the other extreme, you scream your issue into people’s faces in Times Square whilst covered in your own faeces and stream everything on YouTube. No one takes you seriously.
There’s a sweet spot somewhere in the middle of the two.
All of the activities that PauseAI engages in are seen by the public as acceptable forms of protest.
Although, of course, the details can always be improved, so I appreciate your thoughts. My hunch is that we’re probably at around about the right level of annoyingness. (although my personal preference to avoid being seen as weird may bias me against adopting more annoying tactics—even if they have higher expected value).
The thing that got me was Pause AI trying to coalition with people against AI art. I don’t really have anything against the idea of a pause but Pause AI seems a bit simulacrum level 2 for me.
I think it comes down to exactly how the protests run.
I’m not a fan of chants like “Pause AI, we don’t want to die” as that won’t make sense to people with low context, but there’s a way of doing protesting that actually builds credibility. For example, I’d recommend avoiding loudspeakers and seeming angry vs. just trying to come across as reasonable.
IMO I’d feel a lot better if it was less angryish. I think there probably is something like a protest that I can imagine working. I’m not sure if I’d call it a protest? Unless, have you got example protests?
I can image a “change my mind” type of stall/stalls. Where people have calm conversations to explain the situation to the public.
I think it’s fine to call it a protest, but it works better if the people are smiling and if message discipline is maintained. We need people to see a picture in the newspaper and think “those people look reasonable”. There might be a point where the strategy changes, but for now it’s about establishing credibility.