I can’t understand how this is a popular post, giving the number of assumptions you made.
First, I don’t have a brother. In my analogue of the situation, I’m kind to that person and he isn’t kind to me. I never did anything bad to him (and I don’t do bad things to people, by the way). But this is irrelevant, because the point here is to change the mind of someone you know who didn’t change his opinion when the subject of that opinion has changed a lot.
Re your friend: “Change him to be like you” seems like a bad idea in general
By “like you”, I meant in respect of skepticism. Isn’t that the whole point of the community, to make other people more rational? Isn’t that the whole point of popularizing skepticism? Of course I didn’t mean to make him a person more like me, I thought this is so obvious that it’s implicit.
“One of your friends is very deeply religious” is not necessarily a bad thing if this friend is also happy being religious.
The same person is the best (out of the people I’ve seen) programmer in the whole 1st year in my uni. He has a huge potential and he’s wasting it. He prays 5 times per day, each taking about 30 minutes. And he does all this, because he is rigorously following what seems to be the best idea, according to his information—to be religious. Indeed, he is one of the most rational people I know. Isn’t that a good thing?
“You have a friendly new acquaintance of about average intelligence”—that sounds pretty condescending. Are you sure that you are smarter?
Okay, I used that to illustrate a person who is pretty much an average person, because personality matters a lot here. You’re right that it sounds doesn’t sound like what I meant and I have edited it. When I was writing it, I was very sleep deprived and I probably have other ambiguities.
Is that what I got the negative karma for? When I saw it at first, I thought I have said something wrong. But the karma on your post suggests that many people were thinking the same as you. Is it that the majority of LessWrong thinks that it’s bad to change someone’s mind even when it’s only for his own good?
It seems that my opinion of LessWrong was very optimistic. It saddens me to think that probably I have not found the community of people who are actually rational, unlike the rest of the world. I can’t possibly be biased here, because half of my counterarguments don’t include significant judgments, but plain facts (2 and 3 include judgments, but the judgment part is so insignificant that I’m only saying this out of perfectionism). Any counter-counterarguments are welcome, I would be happy to see myself proven wrong here.
Edit: I have edited my original post. It did indeed sound like I’m a dark lord on the mission to bind people to his will and be like you, their opinions doesn’t matter, etc.. Instead of a rationalist striving for a better world with less delusion and wasted resources.
Also, I forgot to say again how much I dislike it when people make assumptions about what I said. I didn’t write “your brother” because I have a brother, but because I wanted to more accurately describe the template (but this doesn’t mean that real life situations should be more similar to that example situation, I have only wanted the template to be closer to what I originally thought).
Don’t sweat about karma, it’s there mostly for feedback and filtering, not as a judgment tool.
It seems that my opinion of LessWrong was very optimistic. It saddens me to think that probably I have not found the community of people who are actually rational, unlike the rest of the world.
If you define “rational” as “those who understand what I mean, rather than what I say, and agree with me”, then no, you have not.
Don’t sweat about karma, it’s there mostly for feedback and filtering, not as a judgment tool.
I didn’t get this. Isn’t it that people should vote down everything they disagree with?
If you define “rational” as “those who understand what I mean, rather than what I say, and agree with me”, then no, you have not.
Maybe you’re right, I can’t possibly judge how did it look like when read from a different person. Mental contamination.
Famous last words...
Would you still say that if I said “it’s 15:00 here, therefore it’s not night—this contradicts your claim that it’s night here, I can’t possibly be biased here”? Because I said something of similar probability, and by “can’t possibly”, I obviously didn’t mean “100% confidence”, because that would be an oxymoron (I can’t have 100% confidence). I expected you to point at some of my statements and claim them to be wrong, that would help me to reach your conclusion, if it’s any different from mine.
Isn’t it that people should vote down everything they disagree with?
Not really. The usual convention is “vote down what you want to see less of.” People differ in terms of what they want to see less of. For example, some people downvote poorly-reasoned arguments defending positions they agree with, because they want fewer poorly-reasoned arguments. Some people downvote well-reasoned arguments defending positions they agree with about topic X, because they want fewer discussions of topic X. Some people downvote well-reasoned arguments defending positions they agree with in response to known or suspected trolls, because they want fewer response to trolls. Etc.
Like shminux said, don’t sweat karma. It’s not a big deal. I cared way too much about karma when I first joined, because this was the first time I’d found an internet community whose opinions I genuinely respected. I still care too much about it, but not nearly as much as I did. I think you got the negative karma primarily because of tone—as several people mentioned, and you’ve acknowledged, you came across as “a dark lord on the mission to bind people to his will and be like you”. My impression is that you have a tendency to write this way. Which isn’t a terrible thing, you should just be aware of it. People rarely understand you exactly as you mean them to. Secondarily, I think you got it because changing other people’s mind isn’t really an exercise in rationality, as rationality is fairly rarely convincing to people. Lastly, it may be to poor editing “he has devoted his life to already invested a lot of it in religion”, and “I haven’t been able to change nobody’s mind”. I make mistakes like this all the time, when I go back and change part of a sentence and forget to change the other. (For the record, if anyone notices mistakes like this in my writing, please point them out to me, because I’m morbidly embarrassed when look at my recent comments and I have a three day old comment with improper subject verb agreement) But it makes your (or my) post look like it’s unpolished and you didn’t put any effort into it. Alternatively, if English is not your native language, as is the case for many users, you may want to put a disclaimer at the beginning of your posts. The welcome thread also has information on people who can give you English help.
Is it that the majority of LessWrong thinks that it’s bad to change someone’s mind even when it’s only for his own good?
Well the way you phrase it, no. But there are several reasons I wouldn’t try to change someones mind in some of the examples you’ve mentioned. Your programmer friend at Uni is probably too devout to be swayed. Spending what would be about one ninth of his waking day praying does seem like a waste, you’re right. But I don’t think many people who do this could be convinced of atheism regardless. I did find the situation about your “brother” (who I guess isn’t your brother?) compelling, but it would probably be better suited to an open thread. FWIW, my advice is to A. do nice things for him, as moridinamael suggested and B. After doing A. for a little while, address it head on, if it does not work, ask him what you could do to improve your relationship. Express that you enjoy his friendship but have gotten the impression that he thinks XYZ of you. B. may or may not be appropriate given the level of friendship between the two of you, but since you used “brother”, I’m assuming you’re fairly close and that such a conversation wouldn’t be too terribly awkward.
A harder challenge: change your own mind. Your post gives off a vibe that you think that you have the monopoly on truth:
Maybe your brother dislikes you because you still rub him off the wrong way
Re your friend: “Change him to be like you” seems like a bad idea in general
“One of your friends is very deeply religious” is not necessarily a bad thing if this friend is also happy being religious.
“You have a friendly new acquaintance of about average intelligence”—that sounds pretty condescending. Are you sure that you are smarter?
I can’t understand how this is a popular post, giving the number of assumptions you made.
First, I don’t have a brother. In my analogue of the situation, I’m kind to that person and he isn’t kind to me. I never did anything bad to him (and I don’t do bad things to people, by the way). But this is irrelevant, because the point here is to change the mind of someone you know who didn’t change his opinion when the subject of that opinion has changed a lot.
By “like you”, I meant in respect of skepticism. Isn’t that the whole point of the community, to make other people more rational? Isn’t that the whole point of popularizing skepticism? Of course I didn’t mean to make him a person more like me, I thought this is so obvious that it’s implicit.
The same person is the best (out of the people I’ve seen) programmer in the whole 1st year in my uni. He has a huge potential and he’s wasting it. He prays 5 times per day, each taking about 30 minutes. And he does all this, because he is rigorously following what seems to be the best idea, according to his information—to be religious. Indeed, he is one of the most rational people I know. Isn’t that a good thing?
Okay, I used that to illustrate a person who is pretty much an average person, because personality matters a lot here. You’re right that it sounds doesn’t sound like what I meant and I have edited it. When I was writing it, I was very sleep deprived and I probably have other ambiguities.
Is that what I got the negative karma for? When I saw it at first, I thought I have said something wrong. But the karma on your post suggests that many people were thinking the same as you. Is it that the majority of LessWrong thinks that it’s bad to change someone’s mind even when it’s only for his own good?
It seems that my opinion of LessWrong was very optimistic. It saddens me to think that probably I have not found the community of people who are actually rational, unlike the rest of the world. I can’t possibly be biased here, because half of my counterarguments don’t include significant judgments, but plain facts (2 and 3 include judgments, but the judgment part is so insignificant that I’m only saying this out of perfectionism). Any counter-counterarguments are welcome, I would be happy to see myself proven wrong here.
Edit: I have edited my original post. It did indeed sound like I’m a dark lord on the mission to bind people to his will and be like you, their opinions doesn’t matter, etc.. Instead of a rationalist striving for a better world with less delusion and wasted resources.
Also, I forgot to say again how much I dislike it when people make assumptions about what I said. I didn’t write “your brother” because I have a brother, but because I wanted to more accurately describe the template (but this doesn’t mean that real life situations should be more similar to that example situation, I have only wanted the template to be closer to what I originally thought).
Don’t sweat about karma, it’s there mostly for feedback and filtering, not as a judgment tool.
If you define “rational” as “those who understand what I mean, rather than what I say, and agree with me”, then no, you have not.
Famous last words...
I didn’t get this. Isn’t it that people should vote down everything they disagree with?
Maybe you’re right, I can’t possibly judge how did it look like when read from a different person. Mental contamination.
Would you still say that if I said “it’s 15:00 here, therefore it’s not night—this contradicts your claim that it’s night here, I can’t possibly be biased here”? Because I said something of similar probability, and by “can’t possibly”, I obviously didn’t mean “100% confidence”, because that would be an oxymoron (I can’t have 100% confidence). I expected you to point at some of my statements and claim them to be wrong, that would help me to reach your conclusion, if it’s any different from mine.
Not really. The usual convention is “vote down what you want to see less of.” People differ in terms of what they want to see less of. For example, some people downvote poorly-reasoned arguments defending positions they agree with, because they want fewer poorly-reasoned arguments. Some people downvote well-reasoned arguments defending positions they agree with about topic X, because they want fewer discussions of topic X. Some people downvote well-reasoned arguments defending positions they agree with in response to known or suspected trolls, because they want fewer response to trolls. Etc.
Everyone is the hero of their own story, even the villains.
Like shminux said, don’t sweat karma. It’s not a big deal. I cared way too much about karma when I first joined, because this was the first time I’d found an internet community whose opinions I genuinely respected. I still care too much about it, but not nearly as much as I did. I think you got the negative karma primarily because of tone—as several people mentioned, and you’ve acknowledged, you came across as “a dark lord on the mission to bind people to his will and be like you”. My impression is that you have a tendency to write this way. Which isn’t a terrible thing, you should just be aware of it. People rarely understand you exactly as you mean them to. Secondarily, I think you got it because changing other people’s mind isn’t really an exercise in rationality, as rationality is fairly rarely convincing to people. Lastly, it may be to poor editing “he has devoted his life to already invested a lot of it in religion”, and “I haven’t been able to change nobody’s mind”. I make mistakes like this all the time, when I go back and change part of a sentence and forget to change the other. (For the record, if anyone notices mistakes like this in my writing, please point them out to me, because I’m morbidly embarrassed when look at my recent comments and I have a three day old comment with improper subject verb agreement) But it makes your (or my) post look like it’s unpolished and you didn’t put any effort into it. Alternatively, if English is not your native language, as is the case for many users, you may want to put a disclaimer at the beginning of your posts. The welcome thread also has information on people who can give you English help.
Well the way you phrase it, no. But there are several reasons I wouldn’t try to change someones mind in some of the examples you’ve mentioned. Your programmer friend at Uni is probably too devout to be swayed. Spending what would be about one ninth of his waking day praying does seem like a waste, you’re right. But I don’t think many people who do this could be convinced of atheism regardless. I did find the situation about your “brother” (who I guess isn’t your brother?) compelling, but it would probably be better suited to an open thread. FWIW, my advice is to A. do nice things for him, as moridinamael suggested and B. After doing A. for a little while, address it head on, if it does not work, ask him what you could do to improve your relationship. Express that you enjoy his friendship but have gotten the impression that he thinks XYZ of you. B. may or may not be appropriate given the level of friendship between the two of you, but since you used “brother”, I’m assuming you’re fairly close and that such a conversation wouldn’t be too terribly awkward.