In the effective animal altruism movement, I’ve heard a bit (on LW) about wild animal suffering- that is, since raised animals are vastly outnumbered by wild animals (who encounter a fair bit of suffering on a frequent basis), we should be more inclined to prevent wild suffering than worry about spreading vegetarianism.
That said, I think I’ve heard it sometimes as a reason (in itself!) not to worry about animal suffering at all, but has anyone tried to solve or come up with solutions for that problem? Where can I find those? Alternatively, are there more resources I can read on wild animal altruism in general?
since raised animals are vastly outnumbered by wild animals
That doesn’t sound true if you weight by intelligence (which I think you should since intelligent animals are more morally significant). Surely the world’s livestock outnumber all the other large mammals.
That’s… a very good point, now that you mention it. Thanks for suggesting it! I looked into the comparisons in the USA (obviously, we’re not only concerned about the USA. Some countries will have a higher population of wild or domestic, like Canada vs. Egypt. I have no idea if the US represents the average, but I figure it would be easiest to find information on.
That said; some very rough numbers:
Mule & black-tailed deer populations in USA: ~5 million (2003) (Source)
White-tailed deer population in USA: ~15 million (2010?) (Source)
Black bear population in USA: ~.5 million (2011) (Source)
That totals 21.5 million large wild animals- obviously, these aren’t the only large wild animals in the USA, but I imagine that the rest added together wouldn’t equal more than a quarter more than that- so I’ll guess 25 million.
Domesticated animals:
Cattle population in USA: ~100 million (2011) (Source)
Hog & pig population in USA: ~120 million (2011) (Source)
Again, there are other large animals kept on commercial farms (goats, sheep), but they’re probably not more than a quarter- so about 275 million large domesticated animals.
Looking at that, that does put “wild animal suffering” into perspective- if you accepted that philosophy, it would still only be worth >10% of the weight of domesticated animals. I had no idea.
There’s not a whole lot we can do now, so one thing I’ve heard suggested is to spread vegetarianism so that people will be more sympathetic to animals in general, and when we have the ability to engineer some retrovirus to make them suffer less or something like that, we’ll care more about helping animals than not playing god.
Vegetarianism as seeding empathy, interesting- where have you heard that idea brought up? (That is, was it a book or somewhere online I could see more on?) Mass genetic engineering was the ‘solution’ I was wondering about especially. (Obviously it’s a little impractical at the moment.)
Nuking the rainforests doesn’t seem like a good solution (aside from the obvious impacts on OUR wellbeing!) for the same reasons that nuking currently-suffering human populations doesn’t seem like a good solution. Of course, you may have been joking.
I don’t know exactly where I heard it, but I’m pretty sure it was somewhere on felicifia.org.
I am somewhat skeptical of wild animal suffering being bad enough to necessitate nuking the rainforsts, but I think we should try to find out exactly how good their lives are. If their suffering really does significantly outweigh their happiness, then I don’t see how we could justify not nuking them. If an animal is suffering and isn’t likely to get better, you euthanize it. If this applies to all the animals, you euthanize all of them.
In the effective animal altruism movement, I’ve heard a bit (on LW) about wild animal suffering- that is, since raised animals are vastly outnumbered by wild animals (who encounter a fair bit of suffering on a frequent basis), we should be more inclined to prevent wild suffering than worry about spreading vegetarianism.
That said, I think I’ve heard it sometimes as a reason (in itself!) not to worry about animal suffering at all, but has anyone tried to solve or come up with solutions for that problem? Where can I find those? Alternatively, are there more resources I can read on wild animal altruism in general?
That doesn’t sound true if you weight by intelligence (which I think you should since intelligent animals are more morally significant). Surely the world’s livestock outnumber all the other large mammals.
That’s… a very good point, now that you mention it. Thanks for suggesting it! I looked into the comparisons in the USA (obviously, we’re not only concerned about the USA. Some countries will have a higher population of wild or domestic, like Canada vs. Egypt. I have no idea if the US represents the average, but I figure it would be easiest to find information on.
That said; some very rough numbers:
Mule & black-tailed deer populations in USA: ~5 million (2003) (Source)
White-tailed deer population in USA: ~15 million (2010?) (Source)
Black bear population in USA: ~.5 million (2011) (Source)
Coyote population in USA: No good number found
Elk population in USA: ~1 million (2008) (Source)
That totals 21.5 million large wild animals- obviously, these aren’t the only large wild animals in the USA, but I imagine that the rest added together wouldn’t equal more than a quarter more than that- so I’ll guess 25 million.
Domesticated animals:
Cattle population in USA: ~100 million (2011) (Source)
Hog & pig population in USA: ~120 million (2011) (Source)
Again, there are other large animals kept on commercial farms (goats, sheep), but they’re probably not more than a quarter- so about 275 million large domesticated animals.
Looking at that, that does put “wild animal suffering” into perspective- if you accepted that philosophy, it would still only be worth >10% of the weight of domesticated animals. I had no idea.
Large mammals only? Is a domesticated cow smarter than a rat? A pigeon? Tough call.
There’s not a whole lot we can do now, so one thing I’ve heard suggested is to spread vegetarianism so that people will be more sympathetic to animals in general, and when we have the ability to engineer some retrovirus to make them suffer less or something like that, we’ll care more about helping animals than not playing god.
Another possibility: nuke the rainforests.
Vegetarianism as seeding empathy, interesting- where have you heard that idea brought up? (That is, was it a book or somewhere online I could see more on?) Mass genetic engineering was the ‘solution’ I was wondering about especially. (Obviously it’s a little impractical at the moment.)
Nuking the rainforests doesn’t seem like a good solution (aside from the obvious impacts on OUR wellbeing!) for the same reasons that nuking currently-suffering human populations doesn’t seem like a good solution. Of course, you may have been joking.
I don’t know exactly where I heard it, but I’m pretty sure it was somewhere on felicifia.org.
I am somewhat skeptical of wild animal suffering being bad enough to necessitate nuking the rainforsts, but I think we should try to find out exactly how good their lives are. If their suffering really does significantly outweigh their happiness, then I don’t see how we could justify not nuking them. If an animal is suffering and isn’t likely to get better, you euthanize it. If this applies to all the animals, you euthanize all of them.