I always used to wonder if I was with a woman having intercourse with her and she told me “No!”… was there a grace period for me to withdraw or was I instantly guilty of rape?
Legalized rape could just be a change in the timescale over which adjustments take place when consent is initially given and then withdrawn?
Are you looking for a legal answer? Technically, the rule for rape-by-force can be explained as requiring you to stop as soon as there is no longer consent. If some person was wacky enough to withdraw consent in the midst of penetration, then I can’t imagine you’d be guilty if you acted quickly to stop intercourse. But no, you don’t get to say “Just a few more thrusts, please.” In short, the test is whether you are trying to stop.
Weirdtopia? No—history. For example, the Bible rules allowed for capturing the enemy’s women as loot, having sex with their slave, and I’m fairly certain that a woman’s wishes in terms of consent mattered a lot less than those of the male in charge of her. I seem to recall that at some point in Europe the feudal lord or whatever could have his way with your wife, and you had no recourse. This, of course, probably has more to do with inequality than anything else.
As for consent, it’s … complicated. For one thing, it exists in the mind and thus cannot reliably leave a physical trace (because of how memory works by retroactively fitting facts into a narrative, not even the owner of the brain can be certain). And then there’s sleeping, and drugs, and mental illness, and changing one’s mind, and how we decided that none of the usual applies when the person is below a certain age. As a hypothetical example, consider a mute quadriplegic who can only communicate by blinking, gave consent, then withdrew consent halfway through the act but while their partner couldn’t see their eyes.
Besides, it’s not like any modern society would allow assault or harassment, so if they got rid of the laws concerning the special case where sex is involved, it wouldn’t really change much.
I seem to recall that at some point in Europe the feudal lord or whatever could have his way with your wife, and you had no recourse. This, of course, probably has more to do with inequality than anything else.
Your own Wikipedia link seems to be quite clear that this right did exist at certain times in certain cultures.
Interestingly enough, Wikipedia states “There is no evidence of the alleged right in medieval Europe”, but as support links to Britannica which says a very different thing: “The custom is paralleled in various primitive societies, but the evidence of its existence in Europe is all indirect.”
Your own Wikipedia link seems to be quite clear that this right did exist at certain times in certain cultures.
I am not claiming that it never existed anywhere. Merely, that it very likely didn’t exist (as a common practice) in the European Middle Ages.
Interestingly enough, Wikipedia states “There is no evidence of the alleged right in medieval Europe”, but as support links to Britannica which says a very different thing: “The custom is paralleled in various primitive societies, but the evidence of its existence in Europe is all indirect.”
The text is behind a paywall, so I don’t know what indirect evidence they refer to, but the only evidence I’ve seen is hearsay from Enlightenment thinkers that otherwise had a track record of making exaggerated or outright false claims about the Middle Ages.
Your own Wikipedia link seems to be quite clear that this right did exist at certain times in certain cultures.
I didn’t deny that it existed “at certain times in certain cultures.” I am denying that is existed in Medieval Europe, which is why I wrote ”...the droit du seigneur is just more made-up bullshit to defame the medievals.”
Weirdtopia? No—history. For example, the Bible rules allowed for capturing the enemy’s women as loot, having sex with their slave, and I’m fairly certain that a woman’s wishes in terms of consent mattered a lot less than those of the male in charge of her.
Mattered a lot less, to whom? To the men. I’m sure they mattered a great deal to the women. That is where the story is performing weirdtopia. In the story, nonconsensual sex is taken lightly by everyone involved: not only the doers but the done to.
As a youth I read ‘Ayla and the Clan of the Cave Bear’ and the Cro Magnon there are portrayed as a patriarchaic tribe where rape (nonconsensual sex) is ‘legal’ (albeit not looked well at).
Legalized rape?
Weirdtopia, alright.
I always used to wonder if I was with a woman having intercourse with her and she told me “No!”… was there a grace period for me to withdraw or was I instantly guilty of rape?
Legalized rape could just be a change in the timescale over which adjustments take place when consent is initially given and then withdrawn?
3.2 seconds at sea level in the Eastern hemisphere.
Are you looking for a legal answer? Technically, the rule for rape-by-force can be explained as requiring you to stop as soon as there is no longer consent. If some person was wacky enough to withdraw consent in the midst of penetration, then I can’t imagine you’d be guilty if you acted quickly to stop intercourse. But no, you don’t get to say “Just a few more thrusts, please.” In short, the test is whether you are trying to stop.
Weirdtopia? No—history. For example, the Bible rules allowed for capturing the enemy’s women as loot, having sex with their slave, and I’m fairly certain that a woman’s wishes in terms of consent mattered a lot less than those of the male in charge of her. I seem to recall that at some point in Europe the feudal lord or whatever could have his way with your wife, and you had no recourse. This, of course, probably has more to do with inequality than anything else.
As for consent, it’s … complicated. For one thing, it exists in the mind and thus cannot reliably leave a physical trace (because of how memory works by retroactively fitting facts into a narrative, not even the owner of the brain can be certain). And then there’s sleeping, and drugs, and mental illness, and changing one’s mind, and how we decided that none of the usual applies when the person is below a certain age. As a hypothetical example, consider a mute quadriplegic who can only communicate by blinking, gave consent, then withdrew consent halfway through the act but while their partner couldn’t see their eyes.
Besides, it’s not like any modern society would allow assault or harassment, so if they got rid of the laws concerning the special case where sex is involved, it wouldn’t really change much.
Like the use of chastity belts, the droit du seigneur is just more made-up bullshit to defame the medievals.
Your own Wikipedia link seems to be quite clear that this right did exist at certain times in certain cultures.
Interestingly enough, Wikipedia states “There is no evidence of the alleged right in medieval Europe”, but as support links to Britannica which says a very different thing: “The custom is paralleled in various primitive societies, but the evidence of its existence in Europe is all indirect.”
I am not claiming that it never existed anywhere. Merely, that it very likely didn’t exist (as a common practice) in the European Middle Ages.
The text is behind a paywall, so I don’t know what indirect evidence they refer to, but the only evidence I’ve seen is hearsay from Enlightenment thinkers that otherwise had a track record of making exaggerated or outright false claims about the Middle Ages.
I didn’t deny that it existed “at certain times in certain cultures.” I am denying that is existed in Medieval Europe, which is why I wrote ”...the droit du seigneur is just more made-up bullshit to defame the medievals.”
Mattered a lot less, to whom? To the men. I’m sure they mattered a great deal to the women. That is where the story is performing weirdtopia. In the story, nonconsensual sex is taken lightly by everyone involved: not only the doers but the done to.
FWIW ISTR a husband wasn’t allowed to refuse sex from his wife either.
As a youth I read ‘Ayla and the Clan of the Cave Bear’ and the Cro Magnon there are portrayed as a patriarchaic tribe where rape (nonconsensual sex) is ‘legal’ (albeit not looked well at).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clan_of_the_Cave_Bear
This is of course no comparable society. I just wanted to mention it as a cross reference.