What about negative answers to these questions? I’d be willing to write an essay explaining that I don’t think cryonics is a good utilitarian cause (not in the sense that I have another pet cause that I think it is even better, but considerations that cryonics, if successful, would be net-negative).
(Edit) An essay simply detailing considerations as to why cryonics has net negative effects if successful would not qualify. However, if you were to answer one of the questions directly (they aren’t yes/no, but scenario based) you could still feature your argument prominently.
Example: Some particular kind of utilitarians think cryonics has net disutility for certain reasons (your argument), but in the event that they find that cryonicists are easy to work with (plausible scenario), they would cooperate to accomplish some particular instrumental goal despite the net disutility of cryonics.
(I’m not actively soliciting submissions of such a nature, just noting that they are possible. I actually think the utilitarian-against-cryonics space of arguments has been fairly well explored already, and there is motive to do so in the fact that cryonics competes for resources and is unpopular already.)
Also, I would probably feel bad if it turned out to be so clever that it won and I had to take the prize away from someone who I actually agreed with. So after some careful consideration I have decided that I must (respectfully) decline to include it for consideration.
So this contest is essentially a cryonics propaganda competition?
What bottom line are you suggesting this contest has written into it? That cryonics is something that some utilitarians would support under some circumstances? Why is supporting cryonics more controversial than running someone over with a trolley car all of a sudden?
The only filter I’m putting up is a small chunk of prize money, and the only filter is to stay on topic with regards to a specific set of implicitly pro-cryonics issues that I am interested in. Anyone who wants to attack cryonics in a well-written essay is free to do so—I’m simply under no obligation to pay them for it.
I think the problem that people are having is that it’s generally considered an exercise in rhetoric (AKA “dark arts” on LW) to mentally compose an argument with the conclusion already in mind (as opposed to impartially settling upon whatever conclusion the logic leads to) unless you’re attempting to steel-man a position you disagree with. Presumably, doing so will enhance confirmation bias. This is the reason that contrarians and devil’s-advocate-lovers are common among intellectual circles
That cryonics is something that some utilitarians would support under some circumstances?
Yes, I think that’s it. “Bottom line” refers to the conclusion that you must eventually arrive at in order for your essay to qualify.
By army1987′s usage of “bottom line”, an essay contest without a bottom line asks a question, but does not presuppose an answer. An essay contest with a bottom line specifies a conclusion, and asks participants to think of the most clever way to arrive at that conclusion.
Disclaimer: I myself do not think that existence of essay contests with “bottom lines” is necessarily bad practice, although I’m not willing to give an unqualified yay / boo because I haven’t thought about it sufficiently.
Edit:: I suspect that it’s okay if the writer and audience is aware of the potentially bias-inducing nature of the format, and wish to use the format explore the space of arguments for a certain position. You might even change your mind this way (In a “really? That’s the best argument for this?) sort of way.
The efficient charity essay contest had a bottom line, it just wasn’t something anyone would be likely to dispute (and which had been previously argued for on Less Wrong). Qualified entries were supposed to explain, in less jargonistic terms, that you should optimize for utilions rather than fuzzies. The idea in that case was to put the existing ideas in more layman-friendly terms.
If the bottom line we’re discussing is just “some utilitarians in some situations support cryonics”, my thinking is that it shouldn’t be controversial, since that’s pretty much already implied by the fungibility of utility. At least, if the opposite were true, I’d be surprised and want a good explanation for it. But I’m wondering if there’s a more subtle issue—perhaps it is being experienced as implying in some dark-artsy way something like “no rational utilitarian would ever oppose cryonics”, something I never intended (and don’t agree with).
Another explanation is that there’s a real disagreement about the relative plausibility of utilitarians supporting cryonics. I have more or less implied (by the existence of the contest) that it is fairly plausible for lots of kinds of utilitarians. That is something I actually think, but is open to question. Some might be thinking it is fairly implausible for most kinds of utilitarians. It could be seen as a dark arts move on my part, that I didn’t really give the opposite perspective much consideration in composing the contest.
However, the results of the contest should render that idea more of a testable prediction than it was before the contest. If it’s right, it should be possible to critique most of the essays produced for the contest by pointing out how implausible the scenarios are or how odd/implausible the particular kind of utilitarianism they discuss are. If it’s wrong, at least some of the scenarios should be fairly plausible ones for realistic utilitarianisms.
So this contest is essentially a cryonics propaganda competition?
Tongue in cheek answer: Sure, I’ll admit to that. I’d never have lasted long in Slytherin anyway.
Awesome.
Serious answer: I’m just trying to avoid an awkward situation by not appearing willing to actively fund a position I don’t agree with at a core level. An honorary submission would be welcomed, and in fact I think I’ve read and recommended Thrasymachus work in the past on this very topic. It’s based on pro-natalism, if I remember right. So it is on topic in the sense that it would present interesting contrast to the other essays, it just doesn’t answer the questions I actually asked / am willing to pay for answers to (which I expect that many here to already have thought of, but think they need incentive to actually write it out in a nice essay format).
That is not what I’m trying to do. I put up the prize with the intent of exploring a certain class of positions that I already know exist in concept-space (utilitarian frameworks friendly to cryonics). If there are weaknesses, I expect them to be highlighted better once explicated. That isn’t the same as rejecting a fully different class of positions (utilitarian frameworks unfriendly to cryonics), although I feel no particular obligation to fund the latter.
What about negative answers to these questions? I’d be willing to write an essay explaining that I don’t think cryonics is a good utilitarian cause (not in the sense that I have another pet cause that I think it is even better, but considerations that cryonics, if successful, would be net-negative).
Would these sorts of entries be considered?
(Edit) An essay simply detailing considerations as to why cryonics has net negative effects if successful would not qualify. However, if you were to answer one of the questions directly (they aren’t yes/no, but scenario based) you could still feature your argument prominently.
Example: Some particular kind of utilitarians think cryonics has net disutility for certain reasons (your argument), but in the event that they find that cryonicists are easy to work with (plausible scenario), they would cooperate to accomplish some particular instrumental goal despite the net disutility of cryonics.
(I’m not actively soliciting submissions of such a nature, just noting that they are possible. I actually think the utilitarian-against-cryonics space of arguments has been fairly well explored already, and there is motive to do so in the fact that cryonics competes for resources and is unpopular already.)
So this contest is essentially a cryonics propaganda competition?
Awesome.
Yep, just like all the other thousands of essay competitions out there.
This one didn’t have any bottom line already written in.
What bottom line are you suggesting this contest has written into it? That cryonics is something that some utilitarians would support under some circumstances? Why is supporting cryonics more controversial than running someone over with a trolley car all of a sudden?
The only filter I’m putting up is a small chunk of prize money, and the only filter is to stay on topic with regards to a specific set of implicitly pro-cryonics issues that I am interested in. Anyone who wants to attack cryonics in a well-written essay is free to do so—I’m simply under no obligation to pay them for it.
I think the problem that people are having is that it’s generally considered an exercise in rhetoric (AKA “dark arts” on LW) to mentally compose an argument with the conclusion already in mind (as opposed to impartially settling upon whatever conclusion the logic leads to) unless you’re attempting to steel-man a position you disagree with. Presumably, doing so will enhance confirmation bias. This is the reason that contrarians and devil’s-advocate-lovers are common among intellectual circles
Yes, I think that’s it. “Bottom line” refers to the conclusion that you must eventually arrive at in order for your essay to qualify.
By army1987′s usage of “bottom line”, an essay contest without a bottom line asks a question, but does not presuppose an answer. An essay contest with a bottom line specifies a conclusion, and asks participants to think of the most clever way to arrive at that conclusion.
Disclaimer: I myself do not think that existence of essay contests with “bottom lines” is necessarily bad practice, although I’m not willing to give an unqualified yay / boo because I haven’t thought about it sufficiently.
Edit:: I suspect that it’s okay if the writer and audience is aware of the potentially bias-inducing nature of the format, and wish to use the format explore the space of arguments for a certain position. You might even change your mind this way (In a “really? That’s the best argument for this?) sort of way.
The efficient charity essay contest had a bottom line, it just wasn’t something anyone would be likely to dispute (and which had been previously argued for on Less Wrong). Qualified entries were supposed to explain, in less jargonistic terms, that you should optimize for utilions rather than fuzzies. The idea in that case was to put the existing ideas in more layman-friendly terms.
If the bottom line we’re discussing is just “some utilitarians in some situations support cryonics”, my thinking is that it shouldn’t be controversial, since that’s pretty much already implied by the fungibility of utility. At least, if the opposite were true, I’d be surprised and want a good explanation for it. But I’m wondering if there’s a more subtle issue—perhaps it is being experienced as implying in some dark-artsy way something like “no rational utilitarian would ever oppose cryonics”, something I never intended (and don’t agree with).
Another explanation is that there’s a real disagreement about the relative plausibility of utilitarians supporting cryonics. I have more or less implied (by the existence of the contest) that it is fairly plausible for lots of kinds of utilitarians. That is something I actually think, but is open to question. Some might be thinking it is fairly implausible for most kinds of utilitarians. It could be seen as a dark arts move on my part, that I didn’t really give the opposite perspective much consideration in composing the contest.
However, the results of the contest should render that idea more of a testable prediction than it was before the contest. If it’s right, it should be possible to critique most of the essays produced for the contest by pointing out how implausible the scenarios are or how odd/implausible the particular kind of utilitarianism they discuss are. If it’s wrong, at least some of the scenarios should be fairly plausible ones for realistic utilitarianisms.
Tongue in cheek answer: Sure, I’ll admit to that. I’d never have lasted long in Slytherin anyway.
Serious answer: I’m just trying to avoid an awkward situation by not appearing willing to actively fund a position I don’t agree with at a core level. An honorary submission would be welcomed, and in fact I think I’ve read and recommended Thrasymachus work in the past on this very topic. It’s based on pro-natalism, if I remember right. So it is on topic in the sense that it would present interesting contrast to the other essays, it just doesn’t answer the questions I actually asked / am willing to pay for answers to (which I expect that many here to already have thought of, but think they need incentive to actually write it out in a nice essay format).
You should clarify this in your original post.
\cough cough cough**
That is not what I’m trying to do. I put up the prize with the intent of exploring a certain class of positions that I already know exist in concept-space (utilitarian frameworks friendly to cryonics). If there are weaknesses, I expect them to be highlighted better once explicated. That isn’t the same as rejecting a fully different class of positions (utilitarian frameworks unfriendly to cryonics), although I feel no particular obligation to fund the latter.