Have you read a large proportion of this literature? Or just marketing blurbs, which try to make the material sound sensationalistic, controversial, and forbidden? If by “large,” you mean nontrivial, then I would agree, but if you mean the majority of the literature, I don’t think that’s true. For the most part, these guys want to believe that what they are doing is a positive thing, and that they are “adding value” (to use the technical term) to other people’s lives in addition to fulfilling their own goals.
Whether a journalist, or one of these guys, describe these techniques in ominous tones, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they are unethical. Likewise, just because those techniques are described in glowing terms, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are ethical.
People should judge the ethics of the techniques based on actual arguments which understand these techniques, rather than falling prey (see what I did there?) to assumptions embedded in the language describing them that block thought.
I’ve read some free instructional material, some forum discussions, and some blog posts. I’ve also read Elana Clift’s thesis and recommended it here on LW, as you have done.
I’ve found that for the most part the instructional material is as you describe it: the techniques are presented as directed towards a a positive sum interaction. The forums and blog posts are rather more mixed—some PUAs hold to the “added value” line, and others are forthright in expressing the bedpost-notching attitude.
Sounds like we are more on the same page. You are observing that the attitudes of PUAs are not homogenous; empirical research would be necessary to figure out exactly what subsets of PUAs have what attitudes towards women.
The forums and blog posts are rather more mixed—some PUAs hold to the “added value” line, and others are forthright in expressing the bedpost-notching attitude.
Of course, seeking casual sex, and seeking positive-sum interactions, are not mutually exclusive. There may be a correlation between seeking multiple casual sexual partners, and engaging in negative-sum interaction, yet I don’t think that such a correlation is as high as stereotypes, or even PUA’s own language, may make it sound.
Since the primary piece these men are missing is usually their ability to find partners who are sexually attracted, and to initiate sexually with those partners, it’s unsurprising that these guys primarily focus on sexual topics on internets forums; yet this kind of talk may not represent the totality of their attitudes towards women or their relationship goals. To assume that this kind of technical discussion in a specialized forum represent their entire attitudes towards women would be a classic example of the fundamental attribution error.
As for “bedpost-notching,” it’s another loaded term because it implies that seeking many partners is due to a motivation to rack up numbers, rather than, say, simply finding many people desirable.
It has pleased me to rack up numbers in the past; I noticed that the rate at which I was sleeping with new people slowed down after I’d reached a psychologically satisfying number. So it does happen, and I’d like to hope it’s not incompatible with a sex-positive, positive-sum-seeking attitude.
If PUAs are seeking positive-sum interactions, why doesn’t their language reflect that?
It has pleased me to rack up numbers in the past; I noticed that the rate at which I was sleeping with new people slowed down after I’d reached a psychologically satisfying number. So it does happen, and I’d like to hope it’s not incompatible with a sex-positive, positive-sum-seeking attitude.
I agree with you that there is nothing wrong with wanting a certain number of partners as long as raising one’s count isn’t the primary motivation for seeking a partner (does anyone actually have that motivation? I don’t know). But the pejorative nature of the term “bedpost notching” suggests that seeking a psychologically satisfying number of partners is incompatible with a sex-positive, positive-sum-seeking attitude.
If PUAs are seeking positive-sum interactions, why doesn’t their language reflect that?
As pjeby observes, a lot of the time, it does. Outsiders reading it just think that it doesn’t (and they do have some valid beefs).
Outsiders, when first encountering PUA language, will often note how PUAs are focused on sex and conclude that this is all they are interested in. Due to the dichotomy between sex and relationships in our culture, and stereotypes of “players,” a viewer might further conclude that since PUAs are looking for sex, then they are not looking for relationships. Women want “relationships,” men who are “players” want sex.
This is a stereotype, a schema, that ignores the fact that adult relationships typically contain sex. The next part of the schema is that “players” will do whatever it takes to have sex with women including lying and “manipulating,” and then move on, misleading and hurting her (“using her”).
Sometimes, responses to the seduction community really show less about it, and more about our culture’s views towards sex, men, and women. Some people cannot imagine that men learning to pursue sex can use it as a building block for a relationship. That it is possible for men to ethically pursue women when they are not interested in long term relationships. That some women aren’t looking for something long term with every partner. Or that guys may not be sure what they want, and that they are trying to meet people until they meet someone they really connect with.
So there are actually several types of language in the community:
Language that is positive-sum, and sounds positive sum to outsiders
Language that is positive-sum or neutral in that regard, yet sounds zero-sum to outsiders who hold certain assumptions
Language that is zero-sum, and also sounds zero-sum to outsiders
If PUAs are seeking positive-sum interactions, why doesn’t their language reflect that?
It does. I’ve pointed you to more than one sample already. Hell, even Ross Jeffries, arguably one of the sleaziest in the business, has said for decades, “Always leave her better than you found her.”
I should have been more careful in my wording—I was using “bedpost-notching” as the negation of the “added value” attitude, which it is not, as you point out.
To assume that this kind of technical discussion in a specialized forum represent their entire attitudes towards women would be a classic example of the fundamental attribution error.
I would be committing the fundamental attribution error if I assumed that the person who cut me off in traffic was just a jerk instead of, say, momentarily distracted. But much of the PUA ethos is about the correct attitude to hold towards women in order to have good game. Teachings and opinions vary in the community, but it’s not hard to find the contingent that holds that the optimized attitude is “bitches ain’t shit”.
But much of the PUA ethos is about the correct attitude to hold towards women in order to have good game.
Yes, you are quite correct. And there are indeed contingents in the community that advocate attitudes towards women that are negative, in which case it would be reasonable to expect that such men would be less likely to have positive-sum interaction with women. What I wanted to explain was that seeking sexual partners (“bedpost notching”) is not sufficient to ascribe a zero-sum attitude (not that you were necessarily saying otherwise). I didn’t necessarily think that you were committing the fundamental attribution error yourself; I just wanted to put forward the hypothesis that what PUAs write on internet forums doesn’t represent the totality of their views on women.
My observations tend to match yours Hugh. Perhaps my sample is biased somewhat because whenever I am devouring information I naturally seek out the higher quality sources. In the PUA circles the best literature always comes from a perspective of adding value to other people’s lives in addition to fulfilling their own goals. One reason for this is that it is simply a more effective way to think about social interaction. What you believe leaks out non-verbally and having a pro-social identity simply works better.
Regardless of the PUA scene, I simply find descriptions that are a carrier signal for a strong normative frame distasteful in general.
The point is good, but I would perhaps make it without implying victimhood.
The use of the term “vulnerable” is little more than an echo of a large proportion of the PUA literature.
Have you read a large proportion of this literature? Or just marketing blurbs, which try to make the material sound sensationalistic, controversial, and forbidden? If by “large,” you mean nontrivial, then I would agree, but if you mean the majority of the literature, I don’t think that’s true. For the most part, these guys want to believe that what they are doing is a positive thing, and that they are “adding value” (to use the technical term) to other people’s lives in addition to fulfilling their own goals.
Whether a journalist, or one of these guys, describe these techniques in ominous tones, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they are unethical. Likewise, just because those techniques are described in glowing terms, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are ethical.
People should judge the ethics of the techniques based on actual arguments which understand these techniques, rather than falling prey (see what I did there?) to assumptions embedded in the language describing them that block thought.
I’ve read some free instructional material, some forum discussions, and some blog posts. I’ve also read Elana Clift’s thesis and recommended it here on LW, as you have done.
I’ve found that for the most part the instructional material is as you describe it: the techniques are presented as directed towards a a positive sum interaction. The forums and blog posts are rather more mixed—some PUAs hold to the “added value” line, and others are forthright in expressing the bedpost-notching attitude.
Sounds like we are more on the same page. You are observing that the attitudes of PUAs are not homogenous; empirical research would be necessary to figure out exactly what subsets of PUAs have what attitudes towards women.
Of course, seeking casual sex, and seeking positive-sum interactions, are not mutually exclusive. There may be a correlation between seeking multiple casual sexual partners, and engaging in negative-sum interaction, yet I don’t think that such a correlation is as high as stereotypes, or even PUA’s own language, may make it sound.
Since the primary piece these men are missing is usually their ability to find partners who are sexually attracted, and to initiate sexually with those partners, it’s unsurprising that these guys primarily focus on sexual topics on internets forums; yet this kind of talk may not represent the totality of their attitudes towards women or their relationship goals. To assume that this kind of technical discussion in a specialized forum represent their entire attitudes towards women would be a classic example of the fundamental attribution error.
As for “bedpost-notching,” it’s another loaded term because it implies that seeking many partners is due to a motivation to rack up numbers, rather than, say, simply finding many people desirable.
It has pleased me to rack up numbers in the past; I noticed that the rate at which I was sleeping with new people slowed down after I’d reached a psychologically satisfying number. So it does happen, and I’d like to hope it’s not incompatible with a sex-positive, positive-sum-seeking attitude.
If PUAs are seeking positive-sum interactions, why doesn’t their language reflect that?
I agree with you that there is nothing wrong with wanting a certain number of partners as long as raising one’s count isn’t the primary motivation for seeking a partner (does anyone actually have that motivation? I don’t know). But the pejorative nature of the term “bedpost notching” suggests that seeking a psychologically satisfying number of partners is incompatible with a sex-positive, positive-sum-seeking attitude.
As pjeby observes, a lot of the time, it does. Outsiders reading it just think that it doesn’t (and they do have some valid beefs).
Outsiders, when first encountering PUA language, will often note how PUAs are focused on sex and conclude that this is all they are interested in. Due to the dichotomy between sex and relationships in our culture, and stereotypes of “players,” a viewer might further conclude that since PUAs are looking for sex, then they are not looking for relationships. Women want “relationships,” men who are “players” want sex.
This is a stereotype, a schema, that ignores the fact that adult relationships typically contain sex. The next part of the schema is that “players” will do whatever it takes to have sex with women including lying and “manipulating,” and then move on, misleading and hurting her (“using her”).
Sometimes, responses to the seduction community really show less about it, and more about our culture’s views towards sex, men, and women. Some people cannot imagine that men learning to pursue sex can use it as a building block for a relationship. That it is possible for men to ethically pursue women when they are not interested in long term relationships. That some women aren’t looking for something long term with every partner. Or that guys may not be sure what they want, and that they are trying to meet people until they meet someone they really connect with.
So there are actually several types of language in the community:
Language that is positive-sum, and sounds positive sum to outsiders
Language that is positive-sum or neutral in that regard, yet sounds zero-sum to outsiders who hold certain assumptions
Language that is zero-sum, and also sounds zero-sum to outsiders
It does. I’ve pointed you to more than one sample already. Hell, even Ross Jeffries, arguably one of the sleaziest in the business, has said for decades, “Always leave her better than you found her.”
I should have been more careful in my wording—I was using “bedpost-notching” as the negation of the “added value” attitude, which it is not, as you point out.
I would be committing the fundamental attribution error if I assumed that the person who cut me off in traffic was just a jerk instead of, say, momentarily distracted. But much of the PUA ethos is about the correct attitude to hold towards women in order to have good game. Teachings and opinions vary in the community, but it’s not hard to find the contingent that holds that the optimized attitude is “bitches ain’t shit”.
Yes, you are quite correct. And there are indeed contingents in the community that advocate attitudes towards women that are negative, in which case it would be reasonable to expect that such men would be less likely to have positive-sum interaction with women. What I wanted to explain was that seeking sexual partners (“bedpost notching”) is not sufficient to ascribe a zero-sum attitude (not that you were necessarily saying otherwise). I didn’t necessarily think that you were committing the fundamental attribution error yourself; I just wanted to put forward the hypothesis that what PUAs write on internet forums doesn’t represent the totality of their views on women.
My observations tend to match yours Hugh. Perhaps my sample is biased somewhat because whenever I am devouring information I naturally seek out the higher quality sources. In the PUA circles the best literature always comes from a perspective of adding value to other people’s lives in addition to fulfilling their own goals. One reason for this is that it is simply a more effective way to think about social interaction. What you believe leaks out non-verbally and having a pro-social identity simply works better.
Regardless of the PUA scene, I simply find descriptions that are a carrier signal for a strong normative frame distasteful in general.