Claims of professional trainers of olympic level athletes and my own personal experience confirming what they say: ankle dorsiflexion impacts rounding of the lumbar spine in the bottom position of the squat. Rounding the lumbar spine under load is generally bad.
Claims of professional trainers of olympic level athletes
Olympic level athletes use every trick they can find. I would surprised if Olympic level athletes wouldn’t use special shoes, even if the shoes have little effect.
Rounding the lumbar spine under load is generally bad.
That doesn’t tell us much about the utility of the shoes. Would you still buy them if they would cost $1000, $2500 or $5000?
Olympic level athletes use every trick they can find.
It’s not so much a trick as that it’s impossible to hit the bottom position of the snatch without shoes.
Absolute money value are a function of income, savings, etc. But sure, having felt the difference in my lower back I’d say they’re worth at least a grand, probably more. One can just put their heels on 2.5lb weights at the gym for free, but this is somewhat precarious with very heavy weights.
Most people aren’t snatching though. I haven’t seen many beginners who can’t hit depth on a high-bar or low-bar squat because of ankle mobility issues. If there are mobility problems, they’re usually in the hips. I don’t think weightlifting shoes are worth it for most beginners, unless they’re actually doing olympic-style weightlifting (snatch, clean, and jerk). Or unless they have a high income and don’t value the ~$100 very much.
I haven’t seen many beginners who can’t hit depth on a high-bar or low-bar squat because of ankle mobility issues. If there are mobility problems, they’re usually in the hips.
This is exactly the issue I am addressing. Lumbar rounding is not caused by hip inflexibility.
That’s exactly the point I’m disagreeing with—It doesn’t match my experiences teaching and watching beginner lifters. Can you elaborate on your evidence?
I admittedly don’t have as much experience with beginners learning to high bar squat, and high bar definitely takes more ankle flexibility than low bar. But based on what I’ve seen, it’s hard to believe it’s that common a problem even for high bar.
What makes me skeptical is that I have seen many beginners (including myself at one point) believe that they needed more ankle flexibility to squat properly, but actually the problem was that they weren’t sitting back enough, like on the left here:
That applies more to low bar squats than high bar squats, but it’s a common problem for both.
Speaking of which! I don’t have strong feeling either way, but you are very convinced that high bar squatting will cause fewer injuries than low bar squatting. I’d love to hear more about your evidence for that, as well. It seems plausible to me based on the mechanics of the movement but I don’t know if it’s actually true, and how big the difference in injury rate is if there is one.
If you’re going to assert that beginners should high bar squat, and that you need $100 shoes to high bar squat properly, you’d better be pretty sure that high bar squats are actually significantly safer than low bar squats. If the difference is small, most beginners are better off saving their $100 and low bar squatting instead.
Based on the mechanics of the movement, and the experience of watching many many people do low bar squats with dangerous form, the burden of proof should be on low bar squats. You are focusing on the $100 shoes and ignoring that lower back injuries are pervasive, debilitating, and hugely expensive in terms of quality of life and money. If $100 lowers your chance of a back injury by 1%, it is likely worth it, given that people with injured lower backs would gladly pay 10k to get rid of it. The amortized cost is also extremely low. If you only wear your WL shoes at the gym the will last 5 years.
Also, I can honestly say that WL shoes are worth it for the subjective improvement in how squatting feels alone. And you don’t need to buy the shoes to try out the difference. Just get something around .75 high, put your heels on it, and squat with your body weight. The difference is immediately apparent.
You sit back less in a high bar squat, but you do sit back. Personally when I was first learning to squat I was learning high bar and I wasn’t sitting back enough. I’ve seen this in other beginners, too. It sounds like our anecdotal experiences don’t match up and neither one of us has much more to go on, so we probably just won’t agree. That’s fine.
Personally, I’m all for WL shoes. I have some and I love them. But I also think it’s important not to scare people away from trying the sport. If they think they need $100 specialty shoes to get started, they probably won’t bother. Putting your heels on a plate or board is great to try it out but I’ll admit it makes me cringe a little thinking about how unstable that must be. It’s probably fine for someone just starting out with low weight though.
PS—In case it wasn’t clear, I really like your post. I am nitpicking over minor quibbles here, but your main points are great. Thanks for writing it.
How big is the effect size? Are you relying on studies, anecdotal evidence or simple the claims of the manufacturer?
Claims of professional trainers of olympic level athletes and my own personal experience confirming what they say: ankle dorsiflexion impacts rounding of the lumbar spine in the bottom position of the squat. Rounding the lumbar spine under load is generally bad.
I low bar squat barefoot. Would I still benefit from getting weightlifting shoes?
Not really. A few competitive low bar squatters use oly shoes, but it isn’t common.
Olympic level athletes use every trick they can find. I would surprised if Olympic level athletes wouldn’t use special shoes, even if the shoes have little effect.
That doesn’t tell us much about the utility of the shoes. Would you still buy them if they would cost $1000, $2500 or $5000?
It’s not so much a trick as that it’s impossible to hit the bottom position of the snatch without shoes.
Absolute money value are a function of income, savings, etc. But sure, having felt the difference in my lower back I’d say they’re worth at least a grand, probably more. One can just put their heels on 2.5lb weights at the gym for free, but this is somewhat precarious with very heavy weights.
Most people aren’t snatching though. I haven’t seen many beginners who can’t hit depth on a high-bar or low-bar squat because of ankle mobility issues. If there are mobility problems, they’re usually in the hips. I don’t think weightlifting shoes are worth it for most beginners, unless they’re actually doing olympic-style weightlifting (snatch, clean, and jerk). Or unless they have a high income and don’t value the ~$100 very much.
This is exactly the issue I am addressing. Lumbar rounding is not caused by hip inflexibility.
That’s exactly the point I’m disagreeing with—It doesn’t match my experiences teaching and watching beginner lifters. Can you elaborate on your evidence?
I admittedly don’t have as much experience with beginners learning to high bar squat, and high bar definitely takes more ankle flexibility than low bar. But based on what I’ve seen, it’s hard to believe it’s that common a problem even for high bar.
What makes me skeptical is that I have seen many beginners (including myself at one point) believe that they needed more ankle flexibility to squat properly, but actually the problem was that they weren’t sitting back enough, like on the left here:
http://www.nerdfitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Screen-Shot-2014-02-24-at-4.27.47-AM-713x402.png
That applies more to low bar squats than high bar squats, but it’s a common problem for both.
Speaking of which! I don’t have strong feeling either way, but you are very convinced that high bar squatting will cause fewer injuries than low bar squatting. I’d love to hear more about your evidence for that, as well. It seems plausible to me based on the mechanics of the movement but I don’t know if it’s actually true, and how big the difference in injury rate is if there is one.
If you’re going to assert that beginners should high bar squat, and that you need $100 shoes to high bar squat properly, you’d better be pretty sure that high bar squats are actually significantly safer than low bar squats. If the difference is small, most beginners are better off saving their $100 and low bar squatting instead.
You don’t sit back in high bar squats.
Based on the mechanics of the movement, and the experience of watching many many people do low bar squats with dangerous form, the burden of proof should be on low bar squats. You are focusing on the $100 shoes and ignoring that lower back injuries are pervasive, debilitating, and hugely expensive in terms of quality of life and money. If $100 lowers your chance of a back injury by 1%, it is likely worth it, given that people with injured lower backs would gladly pay 10k to get rid of it. The amortized cost is also extremely low. If you only wear your WL shoes at the gym the will last 5 years.
Also, I can honestly say that WL shoes are worth it for the subjective improvement in how squatting feels alone. And you don’t need to buy the shoes to try out the difference. Just get something around .75 high, put your heels on it, and squat with your body weight. The difference is immediately apparent.
You sit back less in a high bar squat, but you do sit back. Personally when I was first learning to squat I was learning high bar and I wasn’t sitting back enough. I’ve seen this in other beginners, too. It sounds like our anecdotal experiences don’t match up and neither one of us has much more to go on, so we probably just won’t agree. That’s fine.
Personally, I’m all for WL shoes. I have some and I love them. But I also think it’s important not to scare people away from trying the sport. If they think they need $100 specialty shoes to get started, they probably won’t bother. Putting your heels on a plate or board is great to try it out but I’ll admit it makes me cringe a little thinking about how unstable that must be. It’s probably fine for someone just starting out with low weight though.
PS—In case it wasn’t clear, I really like your post. I am nitpicking over minor quibbles here, but your main points are great. Thanks for writing it.
I’m surprised there isn’t an intermediate solution—something designed to be a foot support which isn’t a shoe.
Some old fashioned gyms will still have a plank of wood near the squat rack.