(Beginning an argument for the existence of qualia with a bare assertion that they exist is a little more obvious than the way that the word “understanding” is fudged in the Chinese Room argument, but basically it’s the same.)
Just a nit pick: the argument Aaron presented wasn’t an argument for the existence of qualia, and so taking the existence of qualia as a premise doesn’t beg the question. Aaron’s argument was an argument agains artificial consciousness.
Also, I think Aaron’s presentation of (3) was a bit unclear, but it’s not so bad a premise as you think. (3) says that since qualia are not reducible to purely physical descriptions, and since a brain-simulating turing-machine is entirely reducible to purely physical descriptions, brain-simulating turing-machines won’t experience qualia. So if we have qualia, and count as conscious in virtue of having qualia (1), then brain-simulating turing machines won’t count as conscious. If we don’t have qualia, i.e. if all our mental states are reducible to purely physical descriptions, then the argument is unsound because premise (1) is false.
You’re right that you can plug many a term in to replace ‘qualia’, so long as those things are not reducible to purely physical descriptions. So you couldn’t plug in, say, heart-attacks.
This is the root of all these Searle-ian arguments, and they are trivially dissolved by understanding that the special feeling people get when they think of X is also a property of how brains work.
Could you explain this a bit more? I don’t see how it’s relevant to the argument. Searle is not arguing on the basis of any special feelings. This seems like a straw man to me, at the moment, but I may not be appreciating the flaws in Searle’s argument.
the argument Aaron presented wasn’t an argument for the existence of qualia, and so taking the existence of qualia as a premise doesn’t beg the question
In order for the argument to make any sense, you have to buy into several assumptions which basically are the argument. It’s “qualia are special because they’re special, QED”. I thought about calling it circular reasoning, except that it seems closer to begging the question. If you have a better way to put it, by all means share.
Could you explain this a bit more? I don’t see how it’s relevant to the argument. Searle is not arguing on the basis of any special feelings. This seems like a straw man to me, at the moment, but I may not be appreciating the flaws in Searle’s argument.
When I said that our mind detection circuitry was the root of the argument, I didn’t mean that Searle was overtly arguing on the basis of his feelings. What I’m saying is, the only evidence for Searle-type premises are the feelings created by our mind-detection circuitry. If you assume these feelings mean something, then Searle-ish arguments will seem correct, and Searle-ish premises will seem obvious beyond question.
However, if you truly grok the mind-projection fallacy, then Searle-type premises are just as obviously nonsensical, and there’s no reason to pay any attention to the arguments built on top of them. Even as basic a tool as Rationalist Taboo suffices to debunk the premises before the argument can get off the ground.
you have to buy into several assumptions which basically are the argument.
Any vald argument has a conclusion that is entiailed by its premises taken jointly. Circularity is when the whole conclusion is entailed by one premise, with the others being window-dressing.
you have to buy into several assumptions which basically are the argument.
I think there is a way that ripe tomatoes seem visually: how is that mind-projection.
But … if you’re assuming that qualia are “not reducible to purely physical descriptions”, and you need qualia to be conscious, then obviously brain-simulations wont be conscious. But those assumptions seem to be the bulk of the position he’s defending, aren’t they?
But those assumptions seem to be the bulk of the position he’s defending, aren’t they?
Right, the argument comes down, for most of us, to the first premise: do we or do we not have mental states irreducible to purely physical conditions. Aaron didn’t present an argument for that, he just presented Searle’s argument against AI from that. But you’re right to ask for a defense of that premise, since it’s the crucial one and it’s (at the moment) undefended here.
Presenting an obvious result of a nonobvious premise as if it was a nonobvious conclusion seems suspicious, as if he’s trying to trick listeners into accepting his conclusion even when their priors differ.
Presenting a trivial conclusion from nontrivial premises as a nontrivial conclusion seems suspicious
Not only suspicious, but impossible: if the premises are non-trivial, the conclusion is non-trivial.
In every argument, the conclusion follows straight away from the premises. If you accept the premises, and the argument is valid, then you must accept the conclusion. The conclusion does not need any further support.
. (3) says that since qualia are not reducible to purely physical descriptions, and since a brain-simulating turing-machine is entirely reducible to purely physical descriptions, brain-simulating turing-machines won’t experience qualia.
To pick a further nit, the argument is more that qualia can’t be engineered into an AI. If an AI implementation has qualia at all, it would be serendipitous.
To pick a further nit, the argument is more that qualia can’t be engineered into an AI. If an AI implementation has qualia at all, it would be serendipitous.
That’s a possibility, but not as I laid out the argument: if being conscious entails having qualia, and if qualia are all irreducible to purely physical descriptions, and every state of a turning machine is reducible to a purely physical description, then turing machines can’t simulate consciousness. That’s not very neat, but I do believe it’s valid. Your alternative is plausible, but it requires my ‘turning machines are reducible to purely physical descriptions’ premise to be false.
Just a nit pick: the argument Aaron presented wasn’t an argument for the existence of qualia, and so taking the existence of qualia as a premise doesn’t beg the question. Aaron’s argument was an argument agains artificial consciousness.
Also, I think Aaron’s presentation of (3) was a bit unclear, but it’s not so bad a premise as you think. (3) says that since qualia are not reducible to purely physical descriptions, and since a brain-simulating turing-machine is entirely reducible to purely physical descriptions, brain-simulating turing-machines won’t experience qualia. So if we have qualia, and count as conscious in virtue of having qualia (1), then brain-simulating turing machines won’t count as conscious. If we don’t have qualia, i.e. if all our mental states are reducible to purely physical descriptions, then the argument is unsound because premise (1) is false.
You’re right that you can plug many a term in to replace ‘qualia’, so long as those things are not reducible to purely physical descriptions. So you couldn’t plug in, say, heart-attacks.
Could you explain this a bit more? I don’t see how it’s relevant to the argument. Searle is not arguing on the basis of any special feelings. This seems like a straw man to me, at the moment, but I may not be appreciating the flaws in Searle’s argument.
In order for the argument to make any sense, you have to buy into several assumptions which basically are the argument. It’s “qualia are special because they’re special, QED”. I thought about calling it circular reasoning, except that it seems closer to begging the question. If you have a better way to put it, by all means share.
When I said that our mind detection circuitry was the root of the argument, I didn’t mean that Searle was overtly arguing on the basis of his feelings. What I’m saying is, the only evidence for Searle-type premises are the feelings created by our mind-detection circuitry. If you assume these feelings mean something, then Searle-ish arguments will seem correct, and Searle-ish premises will seem obvious beyond question.
However, if you truly grok the mind-projection fallacy, then Searle-type premises are just as obviously nonsensical, and there’s no reason to pay any attention to the arguments built on top of them. Even as basic a tool as Rationalist Taboo suffices to debunk the premises before the argument can get off the ground.
Any vald argument has a conclusion that is entiailed by its premises taken jointly. Circularity is when the whole conclusion is entailed by one premise, with the others being window-dressing.
I think there is a way that ripe tomatoes seem visually: how is that mind-projection.
But … if you’re assuming that qualia are “not reducible to purely physical descriptions”, and you need qualia to be conscious, then obviously brain-simulations wont be conscious. But those assumptions seem to be the bulk of the position he’s defending, aren’t they?
Right, the argument comes down, for most of us, to the first premise: do we or do we not have mental states irreducible to purely physical conditions. Aaron didn’t present an argument for that, he just presented Searle’s argument against AI from that. But you’re right to ask for a defense of that premise, since it’s the crucial one and it’s (at the moment) undefended here.
Presenting an obvious result of a nonobvious premise as if it was a nonobvious conclusion seems suspicious, as if he’s trying to trick listeners into accepting his conclusion even when their priors differ.
[Edited for terminology.]
Not only suspicious, but impossible: if the premises are non-trivial, the conclusion is non-trivial.
In every argument, the conclusion follows straight away from the premises. If you accept the premises, and the argument is valid, then you must accept the conclusion. The conclusion does not need any further support.
Y’know, you’re right. Trivial is not the right word at all.
To pick a further nit, the argument is more that qualia can’t be engineered into an AI. If an AI implementation has qualia at all, it would be serendipitous.
That’s a possibility, but not as I laid out the argument: if being conscious entails having qualia, and if qualia are all irreducible to purely physical descriptions, and every state of a turning machine is reducible to a purely physical description, then turing machines can’t simulate consciousness. That’s not very neat, but I do believe it’s valid. Your alternative is plausible, but it requires my ‘turning machines are reducible to purely physical descriptions’ premise to be false.