I think it would be helpful for the culture to be more open to persistent long-running disagreements that no one is trying to resolve. If we have to come to an agreement, my refusal to update on your evidence or beliefs in some sense compels you to change instead, and can be viewed as selfish/anti-social/controlling (some of the behaviors Aella points to can be frame control, or can be a person who, in an open and honest way, doesn’t care about your opinion). If we’re allowed to just believe different things, then my refusal to update comes across as much less of an attack on you.
One thing I think helps here is that even if someone is superior to you on many axes and doesn’t think much of your opinion, there should be multiple people whose opinions they do take seriously, and they should proactively seek those people out. Someone who is content, much less seeks out, always being the smartest one in the room no longer gets the benefit of a doubt that they just happen to be very skilled. Finding peers is harder the more extreme you are, but a lack of peers will drive even a really well-intentioned person insane, so deferring to them will not go well.
I think it would be helpful for the culture to be more open to persistent long-running disagreements that no one is trying to resolve.
+1 to this. I have an intuition that the unwillingness-to-let-disagreements-stand leads to a bunch of problems in subtle ways, including some of the things you point out here, but haven’t sat down to think through what’s going on there.
If we’re allowed to just believe different things, then my refusal to update comes across as much less of an attack on you.
I agree with this. As someone with whom the concept of frame control in the OP resonated a lot, I want to flag that some of the specifics of “refusing to update” seemed like they were worded too strictly and don’t seem central to the concept of frame control.
Said_achmiz also points this out in a comment here:
I think that the first red flag, and the first anti-red-flag, are both diametrically wrong. [Then quoting the OP:]
… here’s a non-exhaustive list of some frame control symptoms …
They do not demonstrate vulnerability in conversation, or if they do it somehow processes as still invulnerable. They don’t laugh nervously, don’t give tiny signals that they are malleable and interested in conforming to your opinion or worldview.
I don’t think you have to conform to someone’s opinion or worldview in order to avoid frame control. I think what matters is that you listen to them attentively, try to understand what they believe, and give them a “fair hearing,” so to speak. And frame controllers often seem like they don’t remember anything you said about your opinion and worldview, except when it suits them. So you get the sense that discussions with them are beyond fruitless. And more so, you are made to feel small in a way that goes beyond just “the person happens to disagree with me.”
I think it would be helpful for the culture to be more open to persistent long-running disagreements that no one is trying to resolve. If we have to come to an agreement, my refusal to update on your evidence or beliefs in some sense compels you to change instead, and can be viewed as selfish/anti-social/controlling (some of the behaviors Aella points to can be frame control, or can be a person who, in an open and honest way, doesn’t care about your opinion). If we’re allowed to just believe different things, then my refusal to update comes across as much less of an attack on you.
One thing I think helps here is that even if someone is superior to you on many axes and doesn’t think much of your opinion, there should be multiple people whose opinions they do take seriously, and they should proactively seek those people out. Someone who is content, much less seeks out, always being the smartest one in the room no longer gets the benefit of a doubt that they just happen to be very skilled. Finding peers is harder the more extreme you are, but a lack of peers will drive even a really well-intentioned person insane, so deferring to them will not go well.
+1 to this. I have an intuition that the unwillingness-to-let-disagreements-stand leads to a bunch of problems in subtle ways, including some of the things you point out here, but haven’t sat down to think through what’s going on there.
I agree with this. As someone with whom the concept of frame control in the OP resonated a lot, I want to flag that some of the specifics of “refusing to update” seemed like they were worded too strictly and don’t seem central to the concept of frame control.
Said_achmiz also points this out in a comment here:
I don’t think you have to conform to someone’s opinion or worldview in order to avoid frame control. I think what matters is that you listen to them attentively, try to understand what they believe, and give them a “fair hearing,” so to speak. And frame controllers often seem like they don’t remember anything you said about your opinion and worldview, except when it suits them. So you get the sense that discussions with them are beyond fruitless. And more so, you are made to feel small in a way that goes beyond just “the person happens to disagree with me.”
I wish i had more to add: but this comment was so extraordinary that it got me to create an account to mention how extraordinary it was