What is the effect on Harry of the attacks on Hermione?
To make him stronger and more resolute.
Therefore, why is someone attacking Hermione?
Because they want Harry to be stronger and more resolute.
Dumbledore and Quirrell want that. They have both been specifically training him for it, each in their own way. Did they arrange H’s death?
No. Quirrell’s dash to the scene and the conversation of Dumbledore and Quirrell about Harry after H’s death indicate that they are afraid of what this experience will do to Harry. Therefore they are not the ones who arranged it. The only other person strong enough to be the agent behind Hermione’s death is Voldemort.
Harry and Voldemort are enemies. Why does Voldemort want Harry to be stronger?
Because Harry is Voldemort’s intended heir.
Why does Voldemort want Harry for his heir?
Dumbledore’s talk of heirs to Harry alludes to Voldemort. Harry, as transformed by the experiences Voldemort is forcing on him, will be the person Voldemort would wish to be. In addition, Harry’s scar is a horcrux of Voldemort. That is the spell that Voldemort cast in his confrontation with the baby Harry. The Killing Curse was directed not at Harry, but at Lily, to provide the death magic to create the horcrux. Voldemort intends to not merely be succeeded by the forcibly matured Harry, but to be him.
Dumbledore and Quirrell are also trying to develop Harry. Why not just destroy him instead? Quirrell at least would think of that at once.
Both sides want Harry as a weapon in the war.
What is the prize in the war? Surely nothing so trivial as ruling the world? Harry’s own aims are far above that. Since arriving at Hogwarts, he has aimed directly for the heart of magic, using all the methods that wizards know nothing of to figure out how it works, and aims to remake the whole universe according to his desire.
That is the prize: the unification of magic and science, which will unleash power such as the world has never seen.
The secret that this is possible cannot be concealed for ever. Those in power have tried concealment: that is why Magical and Muggle Britain are so sealed off from each other. How could either side know so little of the other, when they live side by side, and everyone at the top level is familiar with both? Propaganda, lies, and concealment both magical and Muggle, to prevent people from learning the dangerous secret, convincing scientists that magic does not even exist, and wizards that science is useless.
It was not always so. Before Science, there was no need. When Science got started with Roger Bacon (his diary is an Important Object in the story, a Chekhov’s Gun which has not yet been fired), someone in the wizarding world eventually realised the potentialities. It cannot be stopped: once a single person discovers the idea, someone will eventually do it. Only the agreement of the most senior wizards to not go there kept it from happening, until Voldemort defected. That is what the wizarding war is about. It was Dumbledore’s plan that Harry Potter should be the one to make that unification of science and magic, and use it for the light side. So he was bred for great inborn magical power, given a scientific education, and then brought to Hogwarts while still immature, that he might be moulded to the cause.
The Singularity is approaching. Dumbledore and Quirrell are striving for a Friendly outcome, while Voldemort wants to be the outcome.
Quirrell’s dash to the scene … indicate that they are afraid of what this experience will do to Harry.
It seems more likely to me that Quirrell’s dash was primarily for the purpose of burning holes in Hogwarts.
Despite leaving before Harry, and Harry stopping to pick up the twins and stopping at the library, and supposedly making a more direct route, Quirrell still failed to arrive before Harry, or for that matter, at all.
I’m not saying Quirrell is unafraid of what this experience will do to Harry, just that I don’t believe Quirrell’s dash is evidence of that.
He’d felt the boy give himself over fully to the killing intention. That was when the Defense Professor had begun burning through the substance of Hogwarts, trying to reach the battle in time.
In chapter 90 Quirrell claims to have left as soon as he discovered “that Miss Granger was on the verge of death”, whatever that means, but it seems clear he’s lying.
“Why not just destroy him instead? Quirrell at least would think of that at once.”
THAT...is a very, very good question. And btw, Quirrel has many other names: Voldemort, Monroe, possibly “black hat”...
Why DIDN”T he just teach harry how to use cursed-fire, and tell him to go far away from Hogwarts (easily enough arranged) to avoid killing any bystanders? (To, yknow, avoid the appearance of being evil...) Seems to me that would be a fast way to preserve the status quo of the universe…
I notice that I am rather confused. I am going to meditate before I post the theory that’s offering itself as a resolution.
ok. so: assuming Harry’s memory of the night his parents died is correct, what if the crucial difference is that, instead of shrugging Lilly off, Voldemort accepted her bargain...making it a two-person ritual rather than just a one-person ritual...which meant that not only was Harry protected against Voldemort, now the latter had to actively guard Harry’s life.
Second part: And as he looked into harry’s eyes...he had his equivalent of an “oh crap”, and then made harry a horcrux because he figured he may as well. Which THEN sparked a nasty resonance that blasted his body to bits and didn’t take like a normal horcrux (is anyone other than Eliezer ~90% sure how they’re supposed to work in MoR?) because he’d already used lilly’s life in a ritual.
ok. so: assuming Harry’s memory of the night his parents died is correct, what if the crucial difference is that, instead of shrugging Lilly off, Voldemort accepted her bargain...making it a two-person ritual rather than just a one-person ritual...which meant that not only was Harry protected against Voldemort, now the latter had to actively guard Harry’s life.
If a mere exchange of promises were sufficient to constitute a magically binding ritual, there would be no need for Unbreakable Oaths.
They aren’t. but someone else once showed that all the elements were present, except for the usual incantations to set it up. In this view, it’s more like an accidentally created ritual.
Aren’t horcruxs supposed to be incredibly costly to create? Like, they use a piece of your soul (or diminish you in a way that has been described as losing a piece of your soul). I don’t think Voldemort would shrug and go, “well, I may as well perform an incredibly costly ritual and make this baby into horcrux” on a whim.
|Aren’t horcruxs supposed to be incredibly costly to create?
I’m afraid you’ll need to find MoR evidence for that, not Cannon evidence. Eliezer rearranged a lot of the details on how Dark Magic works-basically, some rituals, but not all, twist your mind as an explicity price, and it’s often dangerous, but rarely is it truly Evil in and of itself.) He has been very carefull not to make it obvious what the new price or prices for horcrux creation are-except that it still requires a murder. If he’s dropped hints that give more than a +/-5% boost to any particular hypothesis, I haven’t noticed them as such.
Eleizer has: changed the fundamental mechanism for the patronus, made dementors killable with patronus 2.0, edited the magic interactions between Harry and Voldemort to be dangerous to Harry as well as Voldemort, changed how the elder wand works (It’s...maybe a +5 wand under normal use, and is only an “infinity+/-1” wand when fed blood sacrifices), and made Harry’s invisibility cloak work against dementors-Cannon!Dumbledore (or...someone) warns Harry explicitly that invisibility cloaks do not work against dementors.
I’d have to check the bit about Harry’s invisibility cloak not working against dementors—I don’t recall that from canon but if so that is indeed a change. Do you have a specific cite in canon where the invisibility cloak does not work against dementors?
Patronus 2.0 is simply a new spell, not a change to an old one. I don’t recall the fundamental mechanism for the Patronus 1.0 charm has changed, but if you have cites from canon and HPMoR to back up this claim, it could prove your point.
The magical interactions between Harry and Voldemort are different, I suspect, because HPMoR Voldemort did something different to Harry than canon Voldemort.
The elder wand is an extension of canon, not a change. I don’t think there’s anything in canon that contradicts what HPMoR says about it. I read the blood sacrifices as being an additional source of Grindelwald’s power, not something required to power the elder wand. I.e. he had the elder wand and the blood sacrifices. And if I’m wrong about that, I’m still not sure it would contradict canon.
After Apparating to Hogsmeade, Harry, Ron, and Hermione set off a Caterwauling Charm and hid under Harry’s Invisibility Cloak. Unable to find them, the Death Eaters dispatched Dementors to attack the trio, and Harry was forced to cast his Patronus to protect them from being Kissed.
My original point about patronuses turned out to be more hair-splitting than anything else...but it also turns out that Rowling’s take on the partronus totally diverges in lesser-cannon.
“Wonderbook: Book of Spells is the closest a Muggle can come to a real spellbook. I’ve loved working with Sony’s creative team to bring my spells, and some of the history behind them, to life. This is an extrodinary device that offers a reading experience like no other.”
—J.K. Rowling on Wonderbook: Book of Spells
-giving us a source of Rowling-approved info...
In that book, a guy called Raczidian tries to cast a Patronus. He produces, instead, a swarm of maggots....Which turn and eat him up.
MoR “dark-wizards” simply find that the spell fizzles.
I like the analysis, but I think I’m going to have to diverge near the top.
/The only other person strong enough to be the agent behind Hermione’s death is Voldemort./
The problem is, we’re fairly sure that Voldemort is Quirrell. There’s the Pioneer plate, the amusing questionnaire about “where to lose something you want never to be found,” and of course the sense of Doom; in addition, I’m pretty sure that Ryvrmre fnvq fb, va gur ergenpgrq Nhgube’f Abgr sbe Puncgre 20.
You’re also missing a candidate. Throughout the story, there’s been hints at the presence of a Peggy Sue—a long-distance time traveler with unknown intentions and unknown motives. Unfortunately, it’s something of a Fully General Explanation for that reason...
Personally, I’m betting somewhere around 65% that Future!Harry is the culprit—less because I’m 70% certain that Future!Harry is responsible, and more because I’m 95% certain Dumbledore didn’t, and 75% certain Quirrell didn’t, and after that I’m out of conscious hypotheses so the rest get the ~5%.
The problem is, we’re fairly sure that Voldemort is Quirrell. There’s the Pioneer plate, the amusing questionnaire about “where to lose something you want never to be found,” and of course the sense of Doom; in addition, I’m pretty sure that Ryvrmre fnvq fb, va gur ergenpgrq Nhgube’f Abgr sbe Puncgre 20.
I continue, despite all that, to be sceptical that the relationship between the two is anything so simple as plain identity. There is a connection between the two, but Quirrell strikes me as someone who has learned how to be Voldemort but whose terminal values remain on the light side. I will be disappointed if the reveal turns out to be “Surprise! Q is V! Just like you expected all along!” Unless it’s something like Q = V, but is in alliance with Dumbledore against a far greater enemy, a future dark-side Harry who is reaching back through time to bring himself into existence.
I know about the ergenpgrq Nhgube’f Abgr, but it’s ergenpgrq, and I pubbfr abg gb xabj bs vg sbe gur checbfr bs gurfr fcrphyngvbaf. Vg unf ha-unccrarq, naq Ryvrmre vf serr gb jevgr gur fgbel jvgubhg ertneq gb vg.
You’re also missing a candidate. Throughout the story, there’s been hints at the presence of a Peggy Sue—a long-distance time traveler with unknown intentions and unknown motives. Unfortunately, it’s something of a Fully General Explanation for that reason...
That’s a problem with a lot of the paraphernalia of the setting. In a world with time travel, memory erasure, false memories, and ineluctable commands, the most important thing about these is the detailed rules about what you can’t do with them.
There is a connection between the two, but Quirrell strikes me as someone who has learned how to be Voldemort but whose terminal values remain on the light side.
Non sequitur. We have no evidence that Voldemort is necessarily “evil,” only that he committed atrocities. It is possible that an extremely cynical, but otherwise rational David Monroe decided that the best way to save the world was to rule it, and the best way to rule it was to become a hero, and then went about the dirty business of becoming heroic enough to qualify for world domination.
In fact, I rather imagine this being likely. Quirrell as we know him does not seem like the sort of person to have fame, money, or even really personal happiness as terminal values; if nothing else, he seems like the type to take over the world just so he doesn’t have to deal with complete morons anymore, and/or get off this planet.
What is the effect on Harry of the attacks on Hermione?
To make him stronger and more resolute.
Therefore, why is someone attacking Hermione?
Because they want Harry to be stronger and more resolute.
Dumbledore and Quirrell want that. They have both been specifically training him for it, each in their own way. Did they arrange H’s death?
No. Quirrell’s dash to the scene and the conversation of Dumbledore and Quirrell about Harry after H’s death indicate that they are afraid of what this experience will do to Harry. Therefore they are not the ones who arranged it. The only other person strong enough to be the agent behind Hermione’s death is Voldemort.
Harry and Voldemort are enemies. Why does Voldemort want Harry to be stronger?
Because Harry is Voldemort’s intended heir.
Why does Voldemort want Harry for his heir?
Dumbledore’s talk of heirs to Harry alludes to Voldemort. Harry, as transformed by the experiences Voldemort is forcing on him, will be the person Voldemort would wish to be. In addition, Harry’s scar is a horcrux of Voldemort. That is the spell that Voldemort cast in his confrontation with the baby Harry. The Killing Curse was directed not at Harry, but at Lily, to provide the death magic to create the horcrux. Voldemort intends to not merely be succeeded by the forcibly matured Harry, but to be him.
Dumbledore and Quirrell are also trying to develop Harry. Why not just destroy him instead? Quirrell at least would think of that at once.
Both sides want Harry as a weapon in the war.
What is the prize in the war? Surely nothing so trivial as ruling the world? Harry’s own aims are far above that. Since arriving at Hogwarts, he has aimed directly for the heart of magic, using all the methods that wizards know nothing of to figure out how it works, and aims to remake the whole universe according to his desire.
That is the prize: the unification of magic and science, which will unleash power such as the world has never seen.
The secret that this is possible cannot be concealed for ever. Those in power have tried concealment: that is why Magical and Muggle Britain are so sealed off from each other. How could either side know so little of the other, when they live side by side, and everyone at the top level is familiar with both? Propaganda, lies, and concealment both magical and Muggle, to prevent people from learning the dangerous secret, convincing scientists that magic does not even exist, and wizards that science is useless.
It was not always so. Before Science, there was no need. When Science got started with Roger Bacon (his diary is an Important Object in the story, a Chekhov’s Gun which has not yet been fired), someone in the wizarding world eventually realised the potentialities. It cannot be stopped: once a single person discovers the idea, someone will eventually do it. Only the agreement of the most senior wizards to not go there kept it from happening, until Voldemort defected. That is what the wizarding war is about. It was Dumbledore’s plan that Harry Potter should be the one to make that unification of science and magic, and use it for the light side. So he was bred for great inborn magical power, given a scientific education, and then brought to Hogwarts while still immature, that he might be moulded to the cause.
The Singularity is approaching. Dumbledore and Quirrell are striving for a Friendly outcome, while Voldemort wants to be the outcome.
It seems more likely to me that Quirrell’s dash was primarily for the purpose of burning holes in Hogwarts. Despite leaving before Harry, and Harry stopping to pick up the twins and stopping at the library, and supposedly making a more direct route, Quirrell still failed to arrive before Harry, or for that matter, at all.
I’m not saying Quirrell is unafraid of what this experience will do to Harry, just that I don’t believe Quirrell’s dash is evidence of that.
I think that’s wrong. Here’s chapter 89:
In chapter 90 Quirrell claims to have left as soon as he discovered “that Miss Granger was on the verge of death”, whatever that means, but it seems clear he’s lying.
“Why not just destroy him instead? Quirrell at least would think of that at once.” THAT...is a very, very good question. And btw, Quirrel has many other names: Voldemort, Monroe, possibly “black hat”...
Why DIDN”T he just teach harry how to use cursed-fire, and tell him to go far away from Hogwarts (easily enough arranged) to avoid killing any bystanders? (To, yknow, avoid the appearance of being evil...) Seems to me that would be a fast way to preserve the status quo of the universe… I notice that I am rather confused. I am going to meditate before I post the theory that’s offering itself as a resolution.
ok. so: assuming Harry’s memory of the night his parents died is correct, what if the crucial difference is that, instead of shrugging Lilly off, Voldemort accepted her bargain...making it a two-person ritual rather than just a one-person ritual...which meant that not only was Harry protected against Voldemort, now the latter had to actively guard Harry’s life.
Second part: And as he looked into harry’s eyes...he had his equivalent of an “oh crap”, and then made harry a horcrux because he figured he may as well. Which THEN sparked a nasty resonance that blasted his body to bits and didn’t take like a normal horcrux (is anyone other than Eliezer ~90% sure how they’re supposed to work in MoR?) because he’d already used lilly’s life in a ritual.
If a mere exchange of promises were sufficient to constitute a magically binding ritual, there would be no need for Unbreakable Oaths.
They aren’t. but someone else once showed that all the elements were present, except for the usual incantations to set it up. In this view, it’s more like an accidentally created ritual.
Aren’t horcruxs supposed to be incredibly costly to create? Like, they use a piece of your soul (or diminish you in a way that has been described as losing a piece of your soul). I don’t think Voldemort would shrug and go, “well, I may as well perform an incredibly costly ritual and make this baby into horcrux” on a whim.
|Aren’t horcruxs supposed to be incredibly costly to create?
I’m afraid you’ll need to find MoR evidence for that, not Cannon evidence. Eliezer rearranged a lot of the details on how Dark Magic works-basically, some rituals, but not all, twist your mind as an explicity price, and it’s often dangerous, but rarely is it truly Evil in and of itself.) He has been very carefull not to make it obvious what the new price or prices for horcrux creation are-except that it still requires a murder. If he’s dropped hints that give more than a +/-5% boost to any particular hypothesis, I haven’t noticed them as such.
Eliezer has added details of how magic works, but I don’t think he’s intentionally changed anything from canon.
He has.
Eleizer has: changed the fundamental mechanism for the patronus, made dementors killable with patronus 2.0, edited the magic interactions between Harry and Voldemort to be dangerous to Harry as well as Voldemort, changed how the elder wand works (It’s...maybe a +5 wand under normal use, and is only an “infinity+/-1” wand when fed blood sacrifices), and made Harry’s invisibility cloak work against dementors-Cannon!Dumbledore (or...someone) warns Harry explicitly that invisibility cloaks do not work against dementors.
I’d have to check the bit about Harry’s invisibility cloak not working against dementors—I don’t recall that from canon but if so that is indeed a change. Do you have a specific cite in canon where the invisibility cloak does not work against dementors?
Patronus 2.0 is simply a new spell, not a change to an old one. I don’t recall the fundamental mechanism for the Patronus 1.0 charm has changed, but if you have cites from canon and HPMoR to back up this claim, it could prove your point.
The magical interactions between Harry and Voldemort are different, I suspect, because HPMoR Voldemort did something different to Harry than canon Voldemort.
The elder wand is an extension of canon, not a change. I don’t think there’s anything in canon that contradicts what HPMoR says about it. I read the blood sacrifices as being an additional source of Grindelwald’s power, not something required to power the elder wand. I.e. he had the elder wand and the blood sacrifices. And if I’m wrong about that, I’m still not sure it would contradict canon.
on the first one, according to http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Dementor
My original point about patronuses turned out to be more hair-splitting than anything else...but it also turns out that Rowling’s take on the partronus totally diverges in lesser-cannon.
In that book, a guy called Raczidian tries to cast a Patronus. He produces, instead, a swarm of maggots....Which turn and eat him up.
MoR “dark-wizards” simply find that the spell fizzles.
I like the analysis, but I think I’m going to have to diverge near the top.
The problem is, we’re fairly sure that Voldemort is Quirrell. There’s the Pioneer plate, the amusing questionnaire about “where to lose something you want never to be found,” and of course the sense of Doom; in addition, I’m pretty sure that Ryvrmre fnvq fb, va gur ergenpgrq Nhgube’f Abgr sbe Puncgre 20.
You’re also missing a candidate. Throughout the story, there’s been hints at the presence of a Peggy Sue—a long-distance time traveler with unknown intentions and unknown motives. Unfortunately, it’s something of a Fully General Explanation for that reason...
Personally, I’m betting somewhere around 65% that Future!Harry is the culprit—less because I’m 70% certain that Future!Harry is responsible, and more because I’m 95% certain Dumbledore didn’t, and 75% certain Quirrell didn’t, and after that I’m out of conscious hypotheses so the rest get the ~5%.
I continue, despite all that, to be sceptical that the relationship between the two is anything so simple as plain identity. There is a connection between the two, but Quirrell strikes me as someone who has learned how to be Voldemort but whose terminal values remain on the light side. I will be disappointed if the reveal turns out to be “Surprise! Q is V! Just like you expected all along!” Unless it’s something like Q = V, but is in alliance with Dumbledore against a far greater enemy, a future dark-side Harry who is reaching back through time to bring himself into existence.
I know about the ergenpgrq Nhgube’f Abgr, but it’s ergenpgrq, and I pubbfr abg gb xabj bs vg sbe gur checbfr bs gurfr fcrphyngvbaf. Vg unf ha-unccrarq, naq Ryvrmre vf serr gb jevgr gur fgbel jvgubhg ertneq gb vg.
That’s a problem with a lot of the paraphernalia of the setting. In a world with time travel, memory erasure, false memories, and ineluctable commands, the most important thing about these is the detailed rules about what you can’t do with them.
Rot13, granted.
Non sequitur. We have no evidence that Voldemort is necessarily “evil,” only that he committed atrocities. It is possible that an extremely cynical, but otherwise rational David Monroe decided that the best way to save the world was to rule it, and the best way to rule it was to become a hero, and then went about the dirty business of becoming heroic enough to qualify for world domination.
In fact, I rather imagine this being likely. Quirrell as we know him does not seem like the sort of person to have fame, money, or even really personal happiness as terminal values; if nothing else, he seems like the type to take over the world just so he doesn’t have to deal with complete morons anymore, and/or get off this planet.