Consider: If all the rest of the religious framework were granted, would the talking snake be an additional problem? No. The talking snake is only absurd if you refuse to grant the rest of the religious framework. The fact that a snake is talking is not, of itself, the source of any additional problem—unless you were to argue that it fits the mode of a classic bias like minimal counterintuitiveness or thinking that “talking” is a simple feature that can easily be grafted on, etc. But the point is, the part where a talking snake is in this story, is, presuming the story’s other premises, not the proper subject of the dispute.
The problem is the other premises, and notions like sin passed down through generations, or that the sin was contained in an easily accessible tree put right there in the Garden (trap much?), or the fact that a supernatural God is in the story—and so on and so on.
When you look at it from that perspective, then indeed, saying “Ha ha, a talking snake” is the exact mirror image of saying “Ha ha, a monkey birthed a human”, because it takes refuge in absurdity instead of addressing the most important part of an argument as a whole.
Don’t you think it’s still useful to find contradictions within the religious framework in order to convince theists they are wrong? I know some converts who converted because the bible just “didn’t make sense” and contained too many contradictions. Some people even convert to religion because the bible (or whatever holy text) “made so much sense.” They think, “Well, I agree with Y, and since X implies Y, I will now believe X.”
The main premise of ‘magic’ may be the ultimate root of the problem- the one that once you kill it, the problem completely dies- but if it is believed very strongly, it may be very hard to get someone to just change their mind.
As Eliezer mentions in “no universally compelling arguments”, the best reason not to believe something won’t necessarily be the most compelling. We should pick arguments that are more likely to be compelling, and only attack the main issue once it’s doable.
Most people aren’t ok with real contradictions in their beliefs. Trivial contradictions that don’t change the main idea might be dismissed (eg “the bible is just a book of stories, but god actually exists”), but If someone thinks a>b>c>a, and the ordering is essential to the main point, they’ll see this as an obvious problem, which can cause them to rethink things. Once you have them thinking, you’ve done the hard part (confident to unsure takes many bits of evidence. It only takes a few more until they’re pretty sure in the other direction).
If you want to win, attack first where they’re most weak, not where they’re most wrong.
Funny you should mention magic. According to at least onestudy, “traditional Christian religion greatly decreases credulity, as measured by beliefs in such things as dreams, Bigfoot, UFOs, haunted houses, communicating with the dead and astrology” and I’m pretty sure the same goes for magic. Now here’s the funny thing:magic is attested in the Bible, eg in Exodus 7-8 where Egyptian magicians perform almost on par with Moses; and communicating with the dead is attested to in 1 Samuel 28, where King Saul talks to the spirit of Samuel; and prophetic dreams in almost every book in the Old Testament and some of the New; and fighting demonic possession played a key role in Jesus’ ministry and also of His disciples after Him. But the people who most proclaim the Bible’s truth, usually don’t believe in these (especially the first two). Some of these people also claim that if any part of the Bible wasn’t true, then the whole thing is worthless.
Consider: If all the rest of the religious framework were granted, would the talking snake be an additional problem? No. The talking snake is only absurd if you refuse to grant the rest of the religious framework. The fact that a snake is talking is not, of itself, the source of any additional problem—unless you were to argue that it fits the mode of a classic bias like minimal counterintuitiveness or thinking that “talking” is a simple feature that can easily be grafted on, etc. But the point is, the part where a talking snake is in this story, is, presuming the story’s other premises, not the proper subject of the dispute.
The problem is the other premises, and notions like sin passed down through generations, or that the sin was contained in an easily accessible tree put right there in the Garden (trap much?), or the fact that a supernatural God is in the story—and so on and so on.
When you look at it from that perspective, then indeed, saying “Ha ha, a talking snake” is the exact mirror image of saying “Ha ha, a monkey birthed a human”, because it takes refuge in absurdity instead of addressing the most important part of an argument as a whole.
Don’t you think it’s still useful to find contradictions within the religious framework in order to convince theists they are wrong? I know some converts who converted because the bible just “didn’t make sense” and contained too many contradictions. Some people even convert to religion because the bible (or whatever holy text) “made so much sense.” They think, “Well, I agree with Y, and since X implies Y, I will now believe X.”
You should attack the bad links in the causal chain that lead to absurd conclusions, not the conclusions themselves.
So yes, it’s worth attacking the bible’s nonchalance about contradictions—but don’t bother dwelling on the contradictions themselves.
The contradictions are a proper point of attack, but only if they would be really, genuinely troublesome even granting the rest of the premises.
Absolutely.
The main premise of ‘magic’ may be the ultimate root of the problem- the one that once you kill it, the problem completely dies- but if it is believed very strongly, it may be very hard to get someone to just change their mind.
As Eliezer mentions in “no universally compelling arguments”, the best reason not to believe something won’t necessarily be the most compelling. We should pick arguments that are more likely to be compelling, and only attack the main issue once it’s doable.
Most people aren’t ok with real contradictions in their beliefs. Trivial contradictions that don’t change the main idea might be dismissed (eg “the bible is just a book of stories, but god actually exists”), but If someone thinks a>b>c>a, and the ordering is essential to the main point, they’ll see this as an obvious problem, which can cause them to rethink things. Once you have them thinking, you’ve done the hard part (confident to unsure takes many bits of evidence. It only takes a few more until they’re pretty sure in the other direction).
If you want to win, attack first where they’re most weak, not where they’re most wrong.
Funny you should mention magic. According to at least one study, “traditional Christian religion greatly decreases credulity, as measured by beliefs in such things as dreams, Bigfoot, UFOs, haunted houses, communicating with the dead and astrology” and I’m pretty sure the same goes for magic. Now here’s the funny thing:magic is attested in the Bible, eg in Exodus 7-8 where Egyptian magicians perform almost on par with Moses; and communicating with the dead is attested to in 1 Samuel 28, where King Saul talks to the spirit of Samuel; and prophetic dreams in almost every book in the Old Testament and some of the New; and fighting demonic possession played a key role in Jesus’ ministry and also of His disciples after Him. But the people who most proclaim the Bible’s truth, usually don’t believe in these (especially the first two). Some of these people also claim that if any part of the Bible wasn’t true, then the whole thing is worthless.