Thank you for the comment, there’s a lot of questions in there to deal with.
My theory is not not just “position = pain” as you put it. There’s a bit more to what I am saying, but at its shortest:
Chronic malpositioning causes pain. (This pain is currently either labelled as idiopathic, or may have a label/syndrome but it’s cause is still not understood—i.e. still technically idiopathic.)
To break it down:
(As I see it) there are two options with “pain”. Either:
Signals are generated somewhere in the body and we end up experiencing “pain” . (Pathway which involves various stimuli activating ‘tissue sensors’, electro-chemical transmission of information via peripheral nerves to central nervous system (spinal cord to brain) .
Or
Something occurs in the brain that makes us think “pain”.
Malpositioning = increases stress on body. (Misalignment, imbalance. Basic biomechanics.) (Inappropriate/excess) stress is bad. “Pain signals” occur where something bad is occurring.
Why would your assessment of a patient do anything other than figure out which of your Big 5 muscles are involved in the pain? If the answer is, “Strengthen the glutes and your pain will stop,” then how is any pain ever properly characterized as degenerative?
It’s not a matter of “figuring out which of …. 5 muscles are involved in the pain” or of “strengthen” a muscle and stop the pain. I would like to know what I’ve written that led you to these thoughts so I can edit and clarify so others don’t make the same mistake.
As I stated full history and clinical exam are important for a full assessment. Gather all the information/evidence, consider all the possibilities. Lots of things can go wrong in the body.
I was sharing a diagnostic process so the OP can work through the possibilities and rule things in/out. If nothing else shows up indicating other issues, then mechanical/postural/positional/usage issues are the options left—i.e. the “idiopathic pain” my Base-Line theory deals with.
When is “degenerative” a primary aetiology? It is a pathology. Specifically, for joint pain - “degenerative joint changes” may be post-traumatic, post-infection, mechanical ‘wear and tear’, nutritional issues …. Degeneration may or may not be detectable on clinical exam but is something that can be often be seen on imaging. Something for the clinician to show the patient “There, there’s the source or your pain” clinician has made a “diagnosis”, but patient is still in pain and the primary cause hasn’t been found.
There is a lot of cross-over with the DAMNIT list. It is diagnostic tool to run though aetiologies—for any health issue, not just pain. It’s not perfect but it is useful.
How many things induce inflammation?!
.You say you came to LW to get your theory disproven.
What I actually said was “please tear to shreds”. I meant think about what I say, pick apart bit by bit. There’s several threads to pick at. Some real consideration of the anatomical facts I present and how the body is put together. Pointing out any errors.
especially when your model takes eight disorganized posts and has many irrelevant images in it
I’m disappointed that you consider my posts disorganised, but good to know. Thank you. I was hoping they were a progression from facts, definitions and logic to my experiences and updated thoughts. Seems like I failed there.
Feedback is what i want. Some consideration of what I am saying. Pointing out any errors. Some examples of issues with my posts would be great. How much did you read? Where did I lose you? I’ll freely admit that presentation isn’t my strong point and it’s hard to know what level to pitch at. I want to provide accurate anatomy, without it being overwhelmingly wordy. And to provide enough background information for anyone who isn’t familiar with human physiology. When I realised I wouldn’t be publishing a couple of drafts I was working on I did slip some bits into other posts, which might account for a disorganised feel. There is a fair bit of repetition because it does all come down to the anatomy of alignment (midline structures able to align, the body balanced either side) and the 5 main muscles: pelvic floor, rectus abdominis (either side of linea alba), gluteus maximus, rectus femoris. trapezius (either side of nuchal and supraspinous ligaments) that are key to achieving dynamic alignment and balance and having a body that is well-positioned.
I find anatomy easier to understand in pictures rather than words hence many images. And it is all about the anatomy. Which images do you consider irrelevant?
I would really appreciate your thoughts in more detail.
I will be back with a response to what evidence would falsify my theory, it’s more than I can just rattle off.
If you are genuinely willing to give some thought to Base-Line theory then spend some time thinking about the anatomy, finding the muscles on your body and breathing with your Base-Line.
Lie on the floor and take a few deep breaths. Touch your pubic symphysis, navel and xiphoid process in turn. Imagine the line (the linea alba) that joins them extending as you breathe. Close your eyes and focus on the sensory information your body is providing. Give that a go. More than once.
What I actually said was “please tear to shreds”. I meant think about what I say, pick apart bit by bit. There’s several threads to pick at. Some real consideration of the anatomical facts I present and how the body is put together. Pointing out any errors.
Generally, muscles don’t determine posture but fascia do. Using muscles to hold posture is unnecessary waste of energy and adds tension to the body. When bad posture gets fascia to stick together via fibrin the factors that are involved in getting it unstuck in more complex then “you have to have strong muscles” or even acting from those muscles.
That doesn’t mean that muscles aren’t important but “I have a theory that explains everything while completely ignoring the state of the art” just doesn’t give you a complete picture.
Muscles move bones. Muscles do determine posture, along with connective tissues. I did edit my “posture post” after you’d read it. Originally I’d not mentioned the condition of connective tissues affecting posture (a glaring omission!). I find “fascia” too restricting as a term, I’m sticking with connective tissues.
Muscles alter positioning/posture in an active manner.
The condition of connective tissues affects posture in a more passive manner.
factors that are involved in getting it unstuck in more complex
Could you provide details about these factors? This is the stuff I’m looking for.
The anatomy is as near to “fact” as it gets but “restrictions in connective tissues” is my weak spot. I don’t have any specific histological results or evidence past my experience and reasoning based on available knowledge. (What I’ve seen incidentally in various studies over the years does fit with “sticky connective tissues”—inflammation’s a bitch)
I’ve felt the restrictions, heard them, seen them as I’ve moved and released tissues, regaining a little more movement each time. Something is giving, releasing. Connective tissues/ECM is the only tissue it could be (other suggestions welcome). Body wide releases. I can feel my myofascial meridians, where the lines of tension are. I can ‘see’ them when I close my eyes and focus on how my body is moving—proprioceptive feedback from my body giving me a visual representation of the state of my body in lights and colours, flashes and streams.
I’m not saying you have to have strong muscles, I’m saying you have to use the right muscles.
I’m going to wait for your thoughts on what would falsify your theory, because if it’s a real effort, I’ll be more inclined to put in the work you are requesting.
“Irrelevant” was the wrong word re images; sorry to have sent you down a rabbit hole—I should have said, “not obviously necessary to the point being made and/or unaccompanied by some explanation of why I should learn about what’s in the image”. I’d look at an image, read your text on either side of it, and have no idea why you were including it.
If you are genuinely willing to give some thought to Base-Line theory then spend some time thinking about the anatomy, finding the muscles on your body and breathing with your Base-Line.
Lie on the floor and take a few deep breaths. Touch your pubic symphysis, navel and xiphoid process in turn. Imagine the line (the linea alba) that joins them extending as you breathe. Close your eyes and focus on the sensory information your body is providing. Give that a go. More than once.
Why? How many times, for how long? What evidence do you expect this practice to give me in support of your theory? If I don’t feel anything, will you count that as evidence against your theory, or will you explain it as somehow supporting your theory, like Freud would claim that a patient was in denial if they claimed not to have some desire that his theory predicted that they would have?
Why? How many times, for how long? What evidence do you expect this practice to give me in support of your theory? If I don’t feel anything, will you count that as evidence against your theory, or will you explain it as somehow supporting your theory, like Freud would claim that a patient was in denial if they claimed not to have some desire that his theory predicted that they would have?
I can answer each of those questions if you want me to. I am willing to spend the time if you ask but what value are my words to you?
I am offering you a map.
If you want to explore your territory it is up to you.
I will still be back with the big question of anti-theory evidence.
I would be very interested in your prior regarding me passing this test. Even if you don’t want to share, pick a number now. ; )
I’m finding it a valuable exercise, so thank you for the interaction.
Thank you for the comment, there’s a lot of questions in there to deal with.
My theory is not not just “position = pain” as you put it. There’s a bit more to what I am saying, but at its shortest:
Chronic malpositioning causes pain. (This pain is currently either labelled as idiopathic, or may have a label/syndrome but it’s cause is still not understood—i.e. still technically idiopathic.)
To break it down:
(As I see it) there are two options with “pain”. Either:
Signals are generated somewhere in the body and we end up experiencing “pain” . (Pathway which involves various stimuli activating ‘tissue sensors’, electro-chemical transmission of information via peripheral nerves to central nervous system (spinal cord to brain) .
Or
Something occurs in the brain that makes us think “pain”.
Malpositioning = increases stress on body. (Misalignment, imbalance. Basic biomechanics.) (Inappropriate/excess) stress is bad. “Pain signals” occur where something bad is occurring.
It’s not a matter of “figuring out which of …. 5 muscles are involved in the pain” or of “strengthen” a muscle and stop the pain. I would like to know what I’ve written that led you to these thoughts so I can edit and clarify so others don’t make the same mistake.
As I stated full history and clinical exam are important for a full assessment. Gather all the information/evidence, consider all the possibilities. Lots of things can go wrong in the body.
I was sharing a diagnostic process so the OP can work through the possibilities and rule things in/out. If nothing else shows up indicating other issues, then mechanical/postural/positional/usage issues are the options left—i.e. the “idiopathic pain” my Base-Line theory deals with.
When is “degenerative” a primary aetiology? It is a pathology. Specifically, for joint pain - “degenerative joint changes” may be post-traumatic, post-infection, mechanical ‘wear and tear’, nutritional issues …. Degeneration may or may not be detectable on clinical exam but is something that can be often be seen on imaging. Something for the clinician to show the patient “There, there’s the source or your pain” clinician has made a “diagnosis”, but patient is still in pain and the primary cause hasn’t been found.
There is a lot of cross-over with the DAMNIT list. It is diagnostic tool to run though aetiologies—for any health issue, not just pain. It’s not perfect but it is useful.
How many things induce inflammation?!
What I actually said was “please tear to shreds”. I meant think about what I say, pick apart bit by bit. There’s several threads to pick at. Some real consideration of the anatomical facts I present and how the body is put together. Pointing out any errors.
I’m disappointed that you consider my posts disorganised, but good to know. Thank you. I was hoping they were a progression from facts, definitions and logic to my experiences and updated thoughts. Seems like I failed there.
Feedback is what i want. Some consideration of what I am saying. Pointing out any errors. Some examples of issues with my posts would be great. How much did you read? Where did I lose you? I’ll freely admit that presentation isn’t my strong point and it’s hard to know what level to pitch at. I want to provide accurate anatomy, without it being overwhelmingly wordy. And to provide enough background information for anyone who isn’t familiar with human physiology. When I realised I wouldn’t be publishing a couple of drafts I was working on I did slip some bits into other posts, which might account for a disorganised feel. There is a fair bit of repetition because it does all come down to the anatomy of alignment (midline structures able to align, the body balanced either side) and the 5 main muscles: pelvic floor, rectus abdominis (either side of linea alba), gluteus maximus, rectus femoris. trapezius (either side of nuchal and supraspinous ligaments) that are key to achieving dynamic alignment and balance and having a body that is well-positioned.
I find anatomy easier to understand in pictures rather than words hence many images. And it is all about the anatomy. Which images do you consider irrelevant?
I would really appreciate your thoughts in more detail.
I will be back with a response to what evidence would falsify my theory, it’s more than I can just rattle off.
If you are genuinely willing to give some thought to Base-Line theory then spend some time thinking about the anatomy, finding the muscles on your body and breathing with your Base-Line.
Lie on the floor and take a few deep breaths. Touch your pubic symphysis, navel and xiphoid process in turn. Imagine the line (the linea alba) that joins them extending as you breathe. Close your eyes and focus on the sensory information your body is providing. Give that a go. More than once.
Generally, muscles don’t determine posture but fascia do. Using muscles to hold posture is unnecessary waste of energy and adds tension to the body. When bad posture gets fascia to stick together via fibrin the factors that are involved in getting it unstuck in more complex then “you have to have strong muscles” or even acting from those muscles.
That doesn’t mean that muscles aren’t important but “I have a theory that explains everything while completely ignoring the state of the art” just doesn’t give you a complete picture.
Muscles move bones. Muscles do determine posture, along with connective tissues. I did edit my “posture post” after you’d read it. Originally I’d not mentioned the condition of connective tissues affecting posture (a glaring omission!). I find “fascia” too restricting as a term, I’m sticking with connective tissues.
Muscles alter positioning/posture in an active manner.
The condition of connective tissues affects posture in a more passive manner.
Could you provide details about these factors? This is the stuff I’m looking for.
The anatomy is as near to “fact” as it gets but “restrictions in connective tissues” is my weak spot. I don’t have any specific histological results or evidence past my experience and reasoning based on available knowledge. (What I’ve seen incidentally in various studies over the years does fit with “sticky connective tissues”—inflammation’s a bitch)
I’ve felt the restrictions, heard them, seen them as I’ve moved and released tissues, regaining a little more movement each time. Something is giving, releasing. Connective tissues/ECM is the only tissue it could be (other suggestions welcome). Body wide releases. I can feel my myofascial meridians, where the lines of tension are. I can ‘see’ them when I close my eyes and focus on how my body is moving—proprioceptive feedback from my body giving me a visual representation of the state of my body in lights and colours, flashes and streams.
I’m not saying you have to have strong muscles, I’m saying you have to use the right muscles.
I’m going to wait for your thoughts on what would falsify your theory, because if it’s a real effort, I’ll be more inclined to put in the work you are requesting.
“Irrelevant” was the wrong word re images; sorry to have sent you down a rabbit hole—I should have said, “not obviously necessary to the point being made and/or unaccompanied by some explanation of why I should learn about what’s in the image”. I’d look at an image, read your text on either side of it, and have no idea why you were including it.
Why? How many times, for how long? What evidence do you expect this practice to give me in support of your theory? If I don’t feel anything, will you count that as evidence against your theory, or will you explain it as somehow supporting your theory, like Freud would claim that a patient was in denial if they claimed not to have some desire that his theory predicted that they would have?
I can answer each of those questions if you want me to. I am willing to spend the time if you ask but what value are my words to you?
I am offering you a map.
If you want to explore your territory it is up to you.
I will still be back with the big question of anti-theory evidence.
I would be very interested in your prior regarding me passing this test. Even if you don’t want to share, pick a number now. ; )
I’m finding it a valuable exercise, so thank you for the interaction.