Additionally, they seemed to accept the number as is.
I don’t think that’s fair to say given this disclaimer in the faunalytics study:
Note: Some caution
is needed in
considering these
results. It is possible
that former
vegetarians/vegans
may have
exaggerated their
difficulties given that
they provide a
justification for their
current behavior.
.
where Faunalytics reports “listed health issues as a reason they quit”.
This isn’t a quote from the faunalytics data, nor is it an accurate description of the data they gathered.
The survey asked people who are no longer veg*/n if they experienced certain health issues while they were veg*/n. Not whether they attributed those health issues to their diet, or whether they quit because of those health issues.
Someone who experienced depression/anxiety while they were vegan for example, who then quit being vegan because they broke up with their vegan partner, would be included in the survey data you’re talking about.
It’s possible I’m confused or missing something.
I hedged a little less about this after wilkox, a doctor who was not at all happy with the Change My Mind post, said he thought it was if anything an underestimate.
I’m much less confident about my issue with this part because im not totally sure what they meant, but I don’t interpret their comment as saying that in their professional opinion they think the number of people experiencing health issues from veg*nism is higher.
I interpret their surprise at the numbers being due to the fact that it’s a self reported survey. Given that people can say whatever they want, and that it’s surveying ex veg*ns, they’re surprised more people didn’t use health as a rationalization (is my impression).
Given that people can say whatever they want, and that it’s surveying ex veg*ns, they’re surprised more people didn’t use health as a rationalization
That seems reasonable.
Your quote from Faunalytics also seems reasonable, and a counter to my claim. I remembered another line that implied they accepted the number but thought it didn’t matter because it was small. It seems plausible they also were applying heavy discounting for self-reporting bias and expressing surprise about that.
you’re right, my summary in this post was wrong. Thank you for catching that and persisting in pointing it out when I missed it the first time. I’m fixing it now.
I agree with you that self-reports are inherently noisy, and I wish they’d included things like “what percentage of people develop an issue on that list after leaving veg*nism?”, “what percentage of veg*ns recover from said issues without adding in animal products?”, and “how prevalent are these issues in veg*ns, relative to omnivores” However I think self-reporting on the presence of specific issues is a stronger metric than self-reporting on something like “did you leave veganism for medical reasons?”.
Thanks I appreciate this! (What follows doesn’t include any further critical feedback about what you wrote)
One thing I also thought was missing in the survey is something that would touch on a general sense of loss of energy.
Its my impression that many people attempting veganism (perhaps more specifically a whole foods plant based diet, but also veg*nism generally) report a generalized loss of energy. Often this is cited as a reason for stopping the diet.
It’s also my impression (opinion?) that this is largely due to a difference in the intuitive sense of whether you’re getting enough calories, since vegan food is often less caloricaly dense. (You could eat 2Lb of mushrooms, feel super full, and only have eaten 250 calories)
If someone is used to eating a certain volume of food until they feel full, that same heuristic without changing may leave them at a major caloric defecit if eating healthy vegan foods.
This can also be a potential risk factor for any sort of deficiency. The food you’re eating might have 100% of the nutrients you need, but if you’re eating 70% of the food you need, you’ll not be getting enough nutrients.
Yeah I think this is a very important question and I’d love to get more data on it.
My very milquetoast guess is that some vegans or aspiring vegans do just need to eat more, and others are correct that they can’t just eat more, so it doesn’t matter if eating more would help (some of whom could adapt given more time and perhaps a gentler transition, and some of whom can’t).[1] A comment on a previous post talked about all the ways plant-based foods are more filling per unit calorie, and that may be true as far it goes, but it also means those foods are harder to digest, and not everyone considers that a feature.
My gut says that the former group (who just need to literally put more of the same food in their mouth) should be small, because surely they would eventually stumble on the “eat more” plan? The big reason not to would be if they’re calorie-restricting, but that’s independent of veganism. But who knows, people can be really disembodied and there are so many cultural messages tell us to eat less.
I talked in some earlier posts about digestive privilege, where veganism is just easier for some people than others. I think some portion of those people typical mind that everyone else faces the exact same challenge level, and this is the cause of a lot of inflammatory discussion. I have a hunch that people who find veganism more challenging than other vegans, but still less than the population average, or particular people they’re to, are the worst offenders because they did make some sacrifice.
I don’t think that’s fair to say given this disclaimer in the faunalytics study:
.
This isn’t a quote from the faunalytics data, nor is it an accurate description of the data they gathered.
The survey asked people who are no longer veg*/n if they experienced certain health issues while they were veg*/n. Not whether they attributed those health issues to their diet, or whether they quit because of those health issues.
Someone who experienced depression/anxiety while they were vegan for example, who then quit being vegan because they broke up with their vegan partner, would be included in the survey data you’re talking about.
It’s possible I’m confused or missing something.
I’m much less confident about my issue with this part because im not totally sure what they meant, but I don’t interpret their comment as saying that in their professional opinion they think the number of people experiencing health issues from veg*nism is higher.
I interpret their surprise at the numbers being due to the fact that it’s a self reported survey. Given that people can say whatever they want, and that it’s surveying ex veg*ns, they’re surprised more people didn’t use health as a rationalization (is my impression).
That seems reasonable.
Your quote from Faunalytics also seems reasonable, and a counter to my claim. I remembered another line that implied they accepted the number but thought it didn’t matter because it was small. It seems plausible they also were applying heavy discounting for self-reporting bias and expressing surprise about that.
I appreciate the response
Though I’m mostly concerned that you seem to be falsely quoting the faunalytics study:
This isn’t in the study and it’s not something they surveyed. They surveyed something meaningfully different, as I outlined in my comment.
you’re right, my summary in this post was wrong. Thank you for catching that and persisting in pointing it out when I missed it the first time. I’m fixing it now.
I agree with you that self-reports are inherently noisy, and I wish they’d included things like “what percentage of people develop an issue on that list after leaving veg*nism?”, “what percentage of veg*ns recover from said issues without adding in animal products?”, and “how prevalent are these issues in veg*ns, relative to omnivores” However I think self-reporting on the presence of specific issues is a stronger metric than self-reporting on something like “did you leave veganism for medical reasons?”.
Thanks I appreciate this! (What follows doesn’t include any further critical feedback about what you wrote)
One thing I also thought was missing in the survey is something that would touch on a general sense of loss of energy.
Its my impression that many people attempting veganism (perhaps more specifically a whole foods plant based diet, but also veg*nism generally) report a generalized loss of energy. Often this is cited as a reason for stopping the diet.
It’s also my impression (opinion?) that this is largely due to a difference in the intuitive sense of whether you’re getting enough calories, since vegan food is often less caloricaly dense. (You could eat 2Lb of mushrooms, feel super full, and only have eaten 250 calories)
If someone is used to eating a certain volume of food until they feel full, that same heuristic without changing may leave them at a major caloric defecit if eating healthy vegan foods.
This can also be a potential risk factor for any sort of deficiency. The food you’re eating might have 100% of the nutrients you need, but if you’re eating 70% of the food you need, you’ll not be getting enough nutrients.
Yeah I think this is a very important question and I’d love to get more data on it.
My very milquetoast guess is that some vegans or aspiring vegans do just need to eat more, and others are correct that they can’t just eat more, so it doesn’t matter if eating more would help (some of whom could adapt given more time and perhaps a gentler transition, and some of whom can’t).[1] A comment on a previous post talked about all the ways plant-based foods are more filling per unit calorie, and that may be true as far it goes, but it also means those foods are harder to digest, and not everyone considers that a feature.
My gut says that the former group (who just need to literally put more of the same food in their mouth) should be small, because surely they would eventually stumble on the “eat more” plan? The big reason not to would be if they’re calorie-restricting, but that’s independent of veganism. But who knows, people can be really disembodied and there are so many cultural messages tell us to eat less.
I talked in some earlier posts about digestive privilege, where veganism is just easier for some people than others. I think some portion of those people typical mind that everyone else faces the exact same challenge level, and this is the cause of a lot of inflammatory discussion. I have a hunch that people who find veganism more challenging than other vegans, but still less than the population average, or particular people they’re to, are the worst offenders because they did make some sacrifice.
And others have other reasons they can’t be vegan, but not focusing on those right now.