Given that people can say whatever they want, and that it’s surveying ex veg*ns, they’re surprised more people didn’t use health as a rationalization
That seems reasonable.
Your quote from Faunalytics also seems reasonable, and a counter to my claim. I remembered another line that implied they accepted the number but thought it didn’t matter because it was small. It seems plausible they also were applying heavy discounting for self-reporting bias and expressing surprise about that.
you’re right, my summary in this post was wrong. Thank you for catching that and persisting in pointing it out when I missed it the first time. I’m fixing it now.
I agree with you that self-reports are inherently noisy, and I wish they’d included things like “what percentage of people develop an issue on that list after leaving veg*nism?”, “what percentage of veg*ns recover from said issues without adding in animal products?”, and “how prevalent are these issues in veg*ns, relative to omnivores” However I think self-reporting on the presence of specific issues is a stronger metric than self-reporting on something like “did you leave veganism for medical reasons?”.
Thanks I appreciate this! (What follows doesn’t include any further critical feedback about what you wrote)
One thing I also thought was missing in the survey is something that would touch on a general sense of loss of energy.
Its my impression that many people attempting veganism (perhaps more specifically a whole foods plant based diet, but also veg*nism generally) report a generalized loss of energy. Often this is cited as a reason for stopping the diet.
It’s also my impression (opinion?) that this is largely due to a difference in the intuitive sense of whether you’re getting enough calories, since vegan food is often less caloricaly dense. (You could eat 2Lb of mushrooms, feel super full, and only have eaten 250 calories)
If someone is used to eating a certain volume of food until they feel full, that same heuristic without changing may leave them at a major caloric defecit if eating healthy vegan foods.
This can also be a potential risk factor for any sort of deficiency. The food you’re eating might have 100% of the nutrients you need, but if you’re eating 70% of the food you need, you’ll not be getting enough nutrients.
Yeah I think this is a very important question and I’d love to get more data on it.
My very milquetoast guess is that some vegans or aspiring vegans do just need to eat more, and others are correct that they can’t just eat more, so it doesn’t matter if eating more would help (some of whom could adapt given more time and perhaps a gentler transition, and some of whom can’t).[1] A comment on a previous post talked about all the ways plant-based foods are more filling per unit calorie, and that may be true as far it goes, but it also means those foods are harder to digest, and not everyone considers that a feature.
My gut says that the former group (who just need to literally put more of the same food in their mouth) should be small, because surely they would eventually stumble on the “eat more” plan? The big reason not to would be if they’re calorie-restricting, but that’s independent of veganism. But who knows, people can be really disembodied and there are so many cultural messages tell us to eat less.
I talked in some earlier posts about digestive privilege, where veganism is just easier for some people than others. I think some portion of those people typical mind that everyone else faces the exact same challenge level, and this is the cause of a lot of inflammatory discussion. I have a hunch that people who find veganism more challenging than other vegans, but still less than the population average, or particular people they’re to, are the worst offenders because they did make some sacrifice.
That seems reasonable.
Your quote from Faunalytics also seems reasonable, and a counter to my claim. I remembered another line that implied they accepted the number but thought it didn’t matter because it was small. It seems plausible they also were applying heavy discounting for self-reporting bias and expressing surprise about that.
I appreciate the response
Though I’m mostly concerned that you seem to be falsely quoting the faunalytics study:
This isn’t in the study and it’s not something they surveyed. They surveyed something meaningfully different, as I outlined in my comment.
you’re right, my summary in this post was wrong. Thank you for catching that and persisting in pointing it out when I missed it the first time. I’m fixing it now.
I agree with you that self-reports are inherently noisy, and I wish they’d included things like “what percentage of people develop an issue on that list after leaving veg*nism?”, “what percentage of veg*ns recover from said issues without adding in animal products?”, and “how prevalent are these issues in veg*ns, relative to omnivores” However I think self-reporting on the presence of specific issues is a stronger metric than self-reporting on something like “did you leave veganism for medical reasons?”.
Thanks I appreciate this! (What follows doesn’t include any further critical feedback about what you wrote)
One thing I also thought was missing in the survey is something that would touch on a general sense of loss of energy.
Its my impression that many people attempting veganism (perhaps more specifically a whole foods plant based diet, but also veg*nism generally) report a generalized loss of energy. Often this is cited as a reason for stopping the diet.
It’s also my impression (opinion?) that this is largely due to a difference in the intuitive sense of whether you’re getting enough calories, since vegan food is often less caloricaly dense. (You could eat 2Lb of mushrooms, feel super full, and only have eaten 250 calories)
If someone is used to eating a certain volume of food until they feel full, that same heuristic without changing may leave them at a major caloric defecit if eating healthy vegan foods.
This can also be a potential risk factor for any sort of deficiency. The food you’re eating might have 100% of the nutrients you need, but if you’re eating 70% of the food you need, you’ll not be getting enough nutrients.
Yeah I think this is a very important question and I’d love to get more data on it.
My very milquetoast guess is that some vegans or aspiring vegans do just need to eat more, and others are correct that they can’t just eat more, so it doesn’t matter if eating more would help (some of whom could adapt given more time and perhaps a gentler transition, and some of whom can’t).[1] A comment on a previous post talked about all the ways plant-based foods are more filling per unit calorie, and that may be true as far it goes, but it also means those foods are harder to digest, and not everyone considers that a feature.
My gut says that the former group (who just need to literally put more of the same food in their mouth) should be small, because surely they would eventually stumble on the “eat more” plan? The big reason not to would be if they’re calorie-restricting, but that’s independent of veganism. But who knows, people can be really disembodied and there are so many cultural messages tell us to eat less.
I talked in some earlier posts about digestive privilege, where veganism is just easier for some people than others. I think some portion of those people typical mind that everyone else faces the exact same challenge level, and this is the cause of a lot of inflammatory discussion. I have a hunch that people who find veganism more challenging than other vegans, but still less than the population average, or particular people they’re to, are the worst offenders because they did make some sacrifice.
And others have other reasons they can’t be vegan, but not focusing on those right now.