(I deleted my previous comment before I saw your reply, as having been already said earlier. But your quoting from it contains most or all of it.)
So I guess the question is whether you prefer being in an epistemic environment that is caging, mutilating, slaughtering animals
By “epistemic environment” I understand the processes of reasoning prevalent there, be they good (systematically moving towards knowledge and truth) or bad (systematically moving away). The subject matter is not the product of the epistemic environment, only the material it operates on. Hence my perplexity at the idea of an epistemic environment doing the things you attribute to it.
I’m not sure what you mean by “not ideology”. My understanding is that they have an ideology that falsely claims that it is healthy to eat nothing but meat. In this case, health reasons and ideology are tightly linked.
That is merely a belief that these people hold about what sort of diet is healthy. “Ideology” as I understand the word, means beliefs specifically about how society as a whole should be organised. These are moral beliefs. People who believe a meat-only diet is healthy do not recommend it on any other ground but health. They may believe that one morally ought to maintain one’s health, but that applies to all diets, and is a reason often given for a vegetarian diet. Veganism is an ideology, holding it wrong to make or use any animal products whatever, and right to have such things forbidden, on the grounds of animal suffering, or more generally the right of animals not to be used for human purposes. Veganism is not undertaken to improve one’s health, unless via a halo effect: it’s morally good so it must be physically beneficial too. Ensuring a complete diet is something a vegan has to take extra care over.
The subject matter is not the product of the epistemic environment, only the material it operates on. Hence my perplexity at the idea of an epistemic environment doing the things you attribute to it.
I think this constitutes a rejection of rationalism and effwctive altruism? Eliezer started rationalism because he believed that a better epistemic environment would change the subject matter to AI safety and make people focus on more fruitful aspects of AI safety. I’m not sure how effective altruism started, but I believe it is a similar reasoning about how if you think well about charity you might find good neglected causes.
Just highlighting this to see if this is the crux.
That is merely a belief that these people hold about what sort of diet is healthy. “Ideology” as I understand the word, means beliefs specifically about how society as a whole should be organised. These are moral beliefs. People who believe a meat-only diet is healthy do not recommend it on any other ground but health. They may believe that one morally ought to maintain one’s health, but that applies to all diets, and is a reason often given for a vegetarian diet. Veganism is an ideology, holding it wrong to make or use any animal products whatever, and right to have such things forbidden, on the grounds of animal suffering, or more generally the right of animals not to be used for human purposes.
“Eating nothing but meat is healthy” is merely a belief about nutrition, so I agree that this by itself is not an ideology. However I believe it is part of a wider belief system that can reasonably be considered an ideology.
In the only-eating-meat case, it’s sort of weird because anecdotally they seem to have some strange masculinist-primitivist ideology that I don’t know much about.
It’s easier to talk about mainstream carnism. Carnists seem to believe that farms should raise animals for slaughter and consumption, that it’s reasonable to shame people if they oppose carnism at social gatherings (i.e. if someone serves meat at their birthday and a vegan starts talking about how horrible that is, it’s reasonable to call the vegan mean/crazy and tell them to shut up), and some (not sure how many) even believe that the state should send the police to arrest activists who break into factory farms in order to reveal what’s going on there to others.
These very much seem like beliefs about how society should be organized to me? Like we’re covering the production and consumption of fundamental resources like food, culture views about appropriate social interactions, and laws enforced through state violence.
Veganism is not undertaken to improve one’s health, unless via a halo effect: it’s morally good so it must be physically beneficial too. Ensuring a complete diet is something a vegan has to take extra care over.
I agree that many followers of many ideologies end up with stupid, insane, biased and otherwise wrong beliefs.
I think this constitutes a rejection of rationalism and effwctive altruism?
Well, I do reject EA, or rather its intellectual foundation in Peter Singer and radical utilitarianism. But that’s a different discussion, involving the motte-and-bailey of “Wouldn’t you want to direct your efforts in the most actually effective way?” vs “Doing good isn’t the most important thing, it’s the only thing”.
Rationalism in general, understood as the study and practice of those ways of thought and action that reliably lead towards truth and effectiveness and not away from them, yes, that’s a good thing. Eliezer founded LessWrong (and before that, co-founded Overcoming Bias) because he was already motivated by the threat of AGI, but saw a basic education in how to think as a prerequisite for anyone to be capable of having useful ideas about AGI. The AGI threat drove his rationalism outreach, rather than rationalism leading to the study of how to safely develop AGI.
Carnists seem to believe that …
I notice that people who eat meat are generally willing to accommodate vegetarians when organising a social gathering, and perhaps also vegans but not necessarily. I would expect them to throw out any vegan who knowingly comes into a non-vegan setting and starts screaming about dead animals.
More generally, calling anyone who doesn’t care about someone’s ideology because they have better things to think about “ideological” is on the way to saying “everything is ideological, everything is political, everything is problematic, and if you’re not for us you’re against us”. And some people actually say that. I think they’re crazy, and if I see them breaking and entering, I’ll call the police on them.
Rationalism in general, understood as the study and practice of those ways of thought and action that reliably lead towards truth and effectiveness and not away from them, yes, that’s a good thing. Eliezer founded LessWrong (and before that, co-founded Overcoming Bias) because he was already motivated by the threat of AGI, but saw a basic education in how to think as a prerequisite for anyone to be capable of having useful ideas about AGI. The AGI threat drove his rationalism outreach, rather than rationalism leading to the study of how to safely develop AGI.
Maybe a way to phrase my objection/confusion is:
In this quote, it seems like you are admitting that the epistemic environment does influence subject (“thought”) and action on some “small scale”. Like for instance rationalism might make people focus on questions like instrumental convergence and human values (good epistemics) instead of the meaning of life (bad epistemics due to lacking concepts of orthogonality), and might e.g. make people focus on regulating rather than accelerating AI.
Now my thought would be that if it influences subject and action on the small scale, then presumably it also influences subject and action on the large scale. After all, there’s no obvious distinction between the scales. Conversely, I guess now I infer that you have some distinction you make between these scales?
I notice that people who eat meat are generally willing to accommodate vegetarians when organising a social gathering, and perhaps also vegans but not necessarily. I would expect them to throw out any vegan who knowingly comes into a non-vegan setting and starts screaming about dead animals.
I didn’t say anything about screaming. It could go something like this:
Amelia’s living room was a dance of warm hues with fairy lights twinkling overhead. Conversations ebbed and flowed as guests exchanged stories and laughter over drinks. The centerpiece of the food table was a roasted chicken, its golden-brown skin glistening under the ambient light.
As guests approached to fill their plates, Luna, with her striking red hair, made her way to the table. She noticed the chicken and paused, taking a deep breath.
Turning to a group that included Rob, Amelia, and a few others she didn’t know well, she said, “It always makes me a bit sad seeing roasted chickens at gatherings.” The group paused, forks midway to their plates, to listen to her. “Many of these chickens are raised in conditions where they’re tightly packed and can’t move freely. They’re bred to grow so quickly that it causes them physical pain.”
Increasing the volume of one’s speech is physically unpleasant and makes it harder for others to get a word in, though with the advantage being that it is easier to hear when there is background noise. Thus screaming would be indicative of there being something non-truthseeking (albeit not necessarily from the screamer, as they might be trying to overwhelm others who are being non-truthseeking, though in practice I expect that either both would be truthseeking or both would be non-truthseeking).
More generally, calling anyone who doesn’t care about someone’s ideology because they have better things to think about “ideological” is on the way to saying “everything is ideological, everything is political, everything is problematic, and if you’re not for us you’re against us”. And some people actually say that.
I don’t think one can avoid ideologies, or that it would be desirable to do so.
Turning to a group that included Rob, Amelia, and a few others she didn’t know well, she said, “It always makes me a bit sad seeing roasted chickens at gatherings.” The group paused, forks midway to their plates, to listen to her. “Many of these chickens are raised in conditions where they’re tightly packed and can’t move freely. They’re bred to grow so quickly that it causes them physical pain.”
One of them replies with a shrug, “So I’ve heard. I can believe it.” Another says, “You knew this wasn’t a vegan gathering when you decided to come.” A third says, “You have said this; I have heard it. Message acknowledged and understood.” A fourth says, “This is important to you; but it is not so important to me.” A fifth says “I’m blogging this.” They carry on gnawing at the chicken wings in their hands.
These are all things that I might say, if I were inclined to say anything at all.
In this quote, it seems like you are admitting that the epistemic environment does influence subject (“thought”) and action on some “small scale”. Like for instance rationalism might make people focus on questions like instrumental convergence and human values (good epistemics) instead of the meaning of life (bad epistemics due to lacking concepts of orthogonality), and might e.g. make people focus on regulating rather than accelerating AI.
By “epistemic environment” I understand the standard of rationality present there. Rationality is a tool that can be deployed towards any goal. A sound epistemic environment is no guarantee that the people in it espouse any particular morality.
I agree that morality is not solely determined by epistemics; the orthogonality thesis holds true. However people’s opinions will also be influenced by their information, due to e.g. expected utility and various other things.
(I deleted my previous comment before I saw your reply, as having been already said earlier. But your quoting from it contains most or all of it.)
By “epistemic environment” I understand the processes of reasoning prevalent there, be they good (systematically moving towards knowledge and truth) or bad (systematically moving away). The subject matter is not the product of the epistemic environment, only the material it operates on. Hence my perplexity at the idea of an epistemic environment doing the things you attribute to it.
That is merely a belief that these people hold about what sort of diet is healthy. “Ideology” as I understand the word, means beliefs specifically about how society as a whole should be organised. These are moral beliefs. People who believe a meat-only diet is healthy do not recommend it on any other ground but health. They may believe that one morally ought to maintain one’s health, but that applies to all diets, and is a reason often given for a vegetarian diet. Veganism is an ideology, holding it wrong to make or use any animal products whatever, and right to have such things forbidden, on the grounds of animal suffering, or more generally the right of animals not to be used for human purposes. Veganism is not undertaken to improve one’s health, unless via a halo effect: it’s morally good so it must be physically beneficial too. Ensuring a complete diet is something a vegan has to take extra care over.
I think this constitutes a rejection of rationalism and effwctive altruism? Eliezer started rationalism because he believed that a better epistemic environment would change the subject matter to AI safety and make people focus on more fruitful aspects of AI safety. I’m not sure how effective altruism started, but I believe it is a similar reasoning about how if you think well about charity you might find good neglected causes.
Just highlighting this to see if this is the crux.
“Eating nothing but meat is healthy” is merely a belief about nutrition, so I agree that this by itself is not an ideology. However I believe it is part of a wider belief system that can reasonably be considered an ideology.
In the only-eating-meat case, it’s sort of weird because anecdotally they seem to have some strange masculinist-primitivist ideology that I don’t know much about.
It’s easier to talk about mainstream carnism. Carnists seem to believe that farms should raise animals for slaughter and consumption, that it’s reasonable to shame people if they oppose carnism at social gatherings (i.e. if someone serves meat at their birthday and a vegan starts talking about how horrible that is, it’s reasonable to call the vegan mean/crazy and tell them to shut up), and some (not sure how many) even believe that the state should send the police to arrest activists who break into factory farms in order to reveal what’s going on there to others.
These very much seem like beliefs about how society should be organized to me? Like we’re covering the production and consumption of fundamental resources like food, culture views about appropriate social interactions, and laws enforced through state violence.
I agree that many followers of many ideologies end up with stupid, insane, biased and otherwise wrong beliefs.
Well, I do reject EA, or rather its intellectual foundation in Peter Singer and radical utilitarianism. But that’s a different discussion, involving the motte-and-bailey of “Wouldn’t you want to direct your efforts in the most actually effective way?” vs “Doing good isn’t the most important thing, it’s the only thing”.
Rationalism in general, understood as the study and practice of those ways of thought and action that reliably lead towards truth and effectiveness and not away from them, yes, that’s a good thing. Eliezer founded LessWrong (and before that, co-founded Overcoming Bias) because he was already motivated by the threat of AGI, but saw a basic education in how to think as a prerequisite for anyone to be capable of having useful ideas about AGI. The AGI threat drove his rationalism outreach, rather than rationalism leading to the study of how to safely develop AGI.
I notice that people who eat meat are generally willing to accommodate vegetarians when organising a social gathering, and perhaps also vegans but not necessarily. I would expect them to throw out any vegan who knowingly comes into a non-vegan setting and starts screaming about dead animals.
More generally, calling anyone who doesn’t care about someone’s ideology because they have better things to think about “ideological” is on the way to saying “everything is ideological, everything is political, everything is problematic, and if you’re not for us you’re against us”. And some people actually say that. I think they’re crazy, and if I see them breaking and entering, I’ll call the police on them.
Maybe a way to phrase my objection/confusion is:
In this quote, it seems like you are admitting that the epistemic environment does influence subject (“thought”) and action on some “small scale”. Like for instance rationalism might make people focus on questions like instrumental convergence and human values (good epistemics) instead of the meaning of life (bad epistemics due to lacking concepts of orthogonality), and might e.g. make people focus on regulating rather than accelerating AI.
Now my thought would be that if it influences subject and action on the small scale, then presumably it also influences subject and action on the large scale. After all, there’s no obvious distinction between the scales. Conversely, I guess now I infer that you have some distinction you make between these scales?
I didn’t say anything about screaming. It could go something like this:
Increasing the volume of one’s speech is physically unpleasant and makes it harder for others to get a word in, though with the advantage being that it is easier to hear when there is background noise. Thus screaming would be indicative of there being something non-truthseeking (albeit not necessarily from the screamer, as they might be trying to overwhelm others who are being non-truthseeking, though in practice I expect that either both would be truthseeking or both would be non-truthseeking).
I don’t think one can avoid ideologies, or that it would be desirable to do so.
One of them replies with a shrug, “So I’ve heard. I can believe it.” Another says, “You knew this wasn’t a vegan gathering when you decided to come.” A third says, “You have said this; I have heard it. Message acknowledged and understood.” A fourth says, “This is important to you; but it is not so important to me.” A fifth says “I’m blogging this.” They carry on gnawing at the chicken wings in their hands.
These are all things that I might say, if I were inclined to say anything at all.
Valid responses.
By “epistemic environment” I understand the standard of rationality present there. Rationality is a tool that can be deployed towards any goal. A sound epistemic environment is no guarantee that the people in it espouse any particular morality.
I agree that morality is not solely determined by epistemics; the orthogonality thesis holds true. However people’s opinions will also be influenced by their information, due to e.g. expected utility and various other things.