To avoid being creepy, the focus should be on keeping your model well-calibrated, and on being fairly risk averse.
How is he to get calibrated while being risk averse and not taking data? Calibration implies knowing the boundary between yes and no.
For the first time kiss, I thought the “suddenly” was exactly the wrong advice. The proper tactic, IMO, is to go slowly and incrementally. Confidence is projected by going slowly but with clear intent. That also allows a woman to decline graciously. She should not be asking “what was that”, because you should have made it clear before doing it.
In most physical and emotional human endeavors, rushing is the sign of a mind focused on success/failure instead of the act. Do not try, do.
So, in the example of kissing that girl for the first time from before, I’d be suggesting he get verbal consent.
That seems a comment based in ideology, and not reality. I guess there must be some women for whom that would work, but I believe most women would find that a massive cold shower—perhaps permanently. The offer and consent should be nonverbal. Going slowly and incrementally allows you to minimize any delta between act and consent.
That seems a comment based in ideology, and not reality. I guess there must be some women for whom that would work, but I believe most women would find that a massive cold shower—perhaps permanently. The offer and consent should be nonverbal. Going slowly and incrementally allows you to minimize any delta between act and consent.
I think this is really an imagination failure for how “verbal consent” would work. An example that includes a minor verbal component: I often smile and say something like “come here” while shifting myself around (e.g. putting my arm around him/her). We then meet half way. This works just fine.
I’ve had someone say something like “God! I’ve been trying to find a break to kiss you for the last five minutes, but we keep just having too much to say!”. That was absolutely fine too.
A friend once told me he said something like, “you know what’s awesome? Make outs are awesome”.
I can’t remember whether I’ve ever done something as direct as whispering “can I kiss you”, but it’s hard to imagine that being a deal breaker for anyone I’ve hooked up with.
The post that advice was in reply to made it clear that they had an ongoing thing, and that they’d already talked about having more-than-friends feelings for each other. In that kind of situation, the girl knows whether she wants to be kissed, and so it actually only matters a little bit how you get there. She’s not going to change her mind about the whole thing just because the initial approach was a little bit clumsy.
Out of interest, do you have the same opinion about explicit verbal consent in other situations? Like, would you say something like, “Can I take these off?” A more specific example: The other week I was making out and cuddling with a girl, and we’d already explicitly negotiated that we wouldn’t be having sex. So at some point we were spooning, and I asked “Can I touch your breasts?”. She hesitated, so I said, “Ah, that’s a no, don’t worry”. She was obviously relieved, and we continued without any problems. This sort of thing only comes up a small minority of the time, but when it does I think it’s actually pretty important to verbalise things. So I’m wondering whether you have a different system, or just never find yourself needing to check in with someone that directly?
I think this is really an imagination failure for how “verbal consent” would work. An example that includes a minor verbal component: I often smile and say something like “come here” while shifting myself around (e.g. putting my arm around him/her). We then meet half way. This works just fine.
I imagine a great many things, and many of those I don’t call “verbal consent”.
I don’t see that as much different than doing a little “come here” sign with your finger. That’s not a question, and you didn’t receive verbal consent in reply. You can accomplish the same effect just by doing—approach, but don’t continue without a positive response in answer.
With the breasts, no, I wouldn’t explicitly ask in that way. Hands go on body, hands caress slowly toward breasts. Pay attention to response. Another way is to look where you intend the hands to go, and go there. Perhaps a comment on the breasts first.
“Can I take these off?” Probably more like “Let’s take these off.” Which again, is more like what you generally do. You don’t say “will you come here?”, you say “come here”.
I don’t see that as much different than doing a little “come here” sign with your finger. That’s not a question, and you didn’t receive verbal consent in reply. You can accomplish the same effect just by doing—approach, but don’t continue without a positive response in answer.
In that specific case the verbal aspect isn’t so important, no. And the big difference from the context in the advice thread is that I don’t have trouble communicating my intent with the body language anyway. But it has felt once or twice that saying something, even something token, has given them more of an opportunity to say something back, and this has led to a non-awkward refusal. I’m not surprised if you find that unconvincing, it’s a personal thing and pretty context-specific.
With the breasts, no, I wouldn’t explicitly ask in that way. Hands go on body, hands caress slowly toward breasts. Pay attention to response. Another way is to look where you intend the hands to go, and go there. Perhaps a comment on the breasts first.
“Can I take these off?” Probably more like “Let’s take these off.” Which again, is more like what you generally do. You don’t say “will you come here?”, you say “come here”.
For me it really depends on my model of what I think they want. Like, assume I’m pretty sure that there’ll be a line somewhere. Obviously, the right thing to do isn’t just “escalate until they give an explicit ‘no’ (either verbally, or by moving my hand away)”. But even if you just proceed cautiously and keep gauging their response, they’re likely to spend a lot of the time thinking about when/whether you’re going to push past where they’re comfortable, and steeling themselves to give that no when it happens. Especially with girls, most will have had more than a few negative experiences with pushy guys.
I mean, I’m not exactly timid or inexperienced, but I still hate it when a guy just grabs a condom and rips it open, if that makes me say “no”.
For the first time kiss, I thought the “suddenly” was exactly the wrong advice.
I think what the ‘suddenly’ is really getting at is that the first-time kiss should be seen as a pleasant surprise from your partner’s POV. It’s certainly possible to make this compatible with a slow and intentful approach (where you can gauge implied, non-verbal consent), but it does require a bit of strategizing. However, actual verbal consent seems to be incompatible with this goal—for this and other reasons, I agree that it wouldn’t really work in practice.
However, actual verbal consent seems to be incompatible with this goal—for this and other reasons, I agree that it wouldn’t really work in practice.
Among other limitations, I think the verbal consent business puts one in the wrong frame of mind—getting into a verbal, logical mode is not conducive to getting busy.
Not sure about that. Sex-positive consent-culture feminists typically suggest combining verbal consent w/ verbal seduction and nonverbal consent w/ nonverbal seduction.
This, is, however, all after one is clearly in lover-space and not the friend-zone, leading up to actual sex/kissing/whatever.
‘Rescripting Sex’ (Pervocracy 2012) is a good explanation of this. Unfortunately I don’t see how to adapt it for very early nonphysical interactions/flirting/whatever.
My preferred solution is better norms but that will never happen.
How is he to get calibrated while being risk averse and not taking data? Calibration implies knowing the boundary between yes and no.
For the first time kiss, I thought the “suddenly” was exactly the wrong advice. The proper tactic, IMO, is to go slowly and incrementally. Confidence is projected by going slowly but with clear intent. That also allows a woman to decline graciously. She should not be asking “what was that”, because you should have made it clear before doing it.
In most physical and emotional human endeavors, rushing is the sign of a mind focused on success/failure instead of the act. Do not try, do.
That seems a comment based in ideology, and not reality. I guess there must be some women for whom that would work, but I believe most women would find that a massive cold shower—perhaps permanently. The offer and consent should be nonverbal. Going slowly and incrementally allows you to minimize any delta between act and consent.
I think this is really an imagination failure for how “verbal consent” would work. An example that includes a minor verbal component: I often smile and say something like “come here” while shifting myself around (e.g. putting my arm around him/her). We then meet half way. This works just fine.
I’ve had someone say something like “God! I’ve been trying to find a break to kiss you for the last five minutes, but we keep just having too much to say!”. That was absolutely fine too.
A friend once told me he said something like, “you know what’s awesome? Make outs are awesome”.
I can’t remember whether I’ve ever done something as direct as whispering “can I kiss you”, but it’s hard to imagine that being a deal breaker for anyone I’ve hooked up with.
The post that advice was in reply to made it clear that they had an ongoing thing, and that they’d already talked about having more-than-friends feelings for each other. In that kind of situation, the girl knows whether she wants to be kissed, and so it actually only matters a little bit how you get there. She’s not going to change her mind about the whole thing just because the initial approach was a little bit clumsy.
Out of interest, do you have the same opinion about explicit verbal consent in other situations? Like, would you say something like, “Can I take these off?” A more specific example: The other week I was making out and cuddling with a girl, and we’d already explicitly negotiated that we wouldn’t be having sex. So at some point we were spooning, and I asked “Can I touch your breasts?”. She hesitated, so I said, “Ah, that’s a no, don’t worry”. She was obviously relieved, and we continued without any problems. This sort of thing only comes up a small minority of the time, but when it does I think it’s actually pretty important to verbalise things. So I’m wondering whether you have a different system, or just never find yourself needing to check in with someone that directly?
I imagine a great many things, and many of those I don’t call “verbal consent”.
I don’t see that as much different than doing a little “come here” sign with your finger. That’s not a question, and you didn’t receive verbal consent in reply. You can accomplish the same effect just by doing—approach, but don’t continue without a positive response in answer.
With the breasts, no, I wouldn’t explicitly ask in that way. Hands go on body, hands caress slowly toward breasts. Pay attention to response. Another way is to look where you intend the hands to go, and go there. Perhaps a comment on the breasts first.
“Can I take these off?” Probably more like “Let’s take these off.” Which again, is more like what you generally do. You don’t say “will you come here?”, you say “come here”.
In that specific case the verbal aspect isn’t so important, no. And the big difference from the context in the advice thread is that I don’t have trouble communicating my intent with the body language anyway. But it has felt once or twice that saying something, even something token, has given them more of an opportunity to say something back, and this has led to a non-awkward refusal. I’m not surprised if you find that unconvincing, it’s a personal thing and pretty context-specific.
For me it really depends on my model of what I think they want. Like, assume I’m pretty sure that there’ll be a line somewhere. Obviously, the right thing to do isn’t just “escalate until they give an explicit ‘no’ (either verbally, or by moving my hand away)”. But even if you just proceed cautiously and keep gauging their response, they’re likely to spend a lot of the time thinking about when/whether you’re going to push past where they’re comfortable, and steeling themselves to give that no when it happens. Especially with girls, most will have had more than a few negative experiences with pushy guys.
I mean, I’m not exactly timid or inexperienced, but I still hate it when a guy just grabs a condom and rips it open, if that makes me say “no”.
I could probably work up some context specific thing too. I largely had the first kiss in mind. I don’t think it’s a winner for that.
Part of going slow is feeling if they’re relaxed and comfortable. If I’m relaxed. If they’re uncomfortable, it’s time to back off.
I think what the ‘suddenly’ is really getting at is that the first-time kiss should be seen as a pleasant surprise from your partner’s POV. It’s certainly possible to make this compatible with a slow and intentful approach (where you can gauge implied, non-verbal consent), but it does require a bit of strategizing. However, actual verbal consent seems to be incompatible with this goal—for this and other reasons, I agree that it wouldn’t really work in practice.
Among other limitations, I think the verbal consent business puts one in the wrong frame of mind—getting into a verbal, logical mode is not conducive to getting busy.
Not sure about that. Sex-positive consent-culture feminists typically suggest combining verbal consent w/ verbal seduction and nonverbal consent w/ nonverbal seduction.
This, is, however, all after one is clearly in lover-space and not the friend-zone, leading up to actual sex/kissing/whatever.
‘Rescripting Sex’ (Pervocracy 2012) is a good explanation of this. Unfortunately I don’t see how to adapt it for very early nonphysical interactions/flirting/whatever.
My preferred solution is better norms but that will never happen.