Right. What do I mean by “subhuman”? It’s probably a bad word to use.
Besides my wife, most of the value I get out of other people is intellectual. Sharing interesting ideas, working together on cool projects, pair programming, etc. I can do these things with the occasional interesting female, and it works for a while, but then it inevitably slides towards flirting and the subtle sexual dance. My thoughts turn towards sex, I start acting differently, sitting close, talking and making jokes, steering things towards sexual escalation, and so on. This is mostly uncontrollable; the meat does as it was programmed to. This ends up distracting from the real reason I might want to be friends with this person; they were intellectually interesting. (This has happened at least five times.)
So why “subhuman”? I’ve gotten pretty good at noticing the social game and the behavior protocols. People act a lot differently depending on attraction and the gender match; with men and women there’s that flirty sexual undertone. It looks a lot like a dog sniffing another dog’s butt and then executing different behaviors depending on the result; subconscious, nonsentient, animal behavior.
I think I should be able to treat women as people instead of just automatically executing this absurd mating dance to the detriment of my plans and interests. It’s really frustruating to have the meat override me on this, and it makes me feel subhuman (have you read “Dune”? That kind of “subhuman”).
So I’m not just oversensitive to political correctness or a rapist monster, I just resent that flirting has root access to my motivations and interferes with my friendships.
Of course the sexual dance is a fun and valuable part of being human, like eating, sleeping, and playing, but I have bigger plans right now and I resent that those things aren’t optional.
That’s a shame. I’ve had some very good close platonic relationships with men in the past (especially at university) where there’s been a lack of attraction on both sides.
[I wasn’t attracted to them, and since they were mostly single and generally pretty confident with women, it’s likely they would have told me if they had been attracted to me].
This is mostly uncontrollable; the meat does as it was programmed to. This ends up distracting from the real reason I might want to be friends with this person; they were intellectually interesting.
As they say: the vodka is good but the meat is rotten. Seriously, I think you should just try to exert your self-control to the extent that you manage to, whenever you find that this might be a problem. Eventually, your behavior will improve and it will not require as much effort to maintain.
(Do realize however, that there’s nothing wrong with light flirting persay. It’s not even clear that it would hinder you from pursuing intellectual interests with your female friends.)
Seriously, I think you should just try to exert your self-control to the extent that you manage to, whenever you find yourself in such circumstances. Eventually, your behavior will improve and it will not require as much effort to maintain.
The point of my rant was that I’ve lost faith that it’s worth it to bring out the big magical-free-will guns, as opposed to just disengaging.
The point of my rant was that I’ve lost faith that it’s worth it to bring out the big magical-free-will guns, as opposed to just disengaging.
Well, TBH, I’m still unsure about that. Have you been approaching this problem with a goal of changing your behavior for the better in the long term, as opposed to simply plowing through and overpowering your instincts occasionally? It could make a difference.
Moreover, it’s possible (IMHO) that disengaging outright from socially interacting with women may not work well at all, in terms of helping you achieve your goals. Honestly, I find your experience to be mildly surprising. My understanding is that guys (or guys who have attained a reasonable level of maturity and self-knowledge, at any rate, as you surely have) do not typically have this kind of self-control problem.
Honestly, I find your experience to be mildly surprising. My understanding is that guys (or guys who have attained a reasonable level of maturity and self-knowledge, at any rate, as you surely have) do not typically have this kind of self-control problem.
Note that, if we assume that mating behavior approaches 0% of a social interaction without reaching it, experiencing this kind of problem depends on the ratio of self-knowledge to self-control.
I agree that willpower isn’t a solution. How much time have you spent brainstorming- literally and explicitly brainstorming- other solutions? There might be Third Alternatives out there which would allow you to enjoy the company of other women without sliding into those habits.
(Important addendum: when I have a problem this significant, I first brainstorm about any roots of the problem I can find, reducing it as far as possible: e.g. my issues with overcompetitiveness and anxiety boiled down in part to a defense strategy self-narrative I used unconsciously as a kid to feel better about having few friends, and realizing this made it easier to discard that self-narrative now that I have many friends. Only when I don’t feel confused about the roots of the problem do I work on brainstorming explicit plans and actions.)
So, you are disgusted with biology in general, with the fact that biological programs have so much power over your mind. The male reproductive instincts are just one part of a larger repulsive whole, perhaps the part which interferes most strongly with your intellectual goals. Do I get that correctly?
Right. What do I mean by “subhuman”? It’s probably a bad word to use.
Besides my wife, most of the value I get out of other people is intellectual. Sharing interesting ideas, working together on cool projects, pair programming, etc. I can do these things with the occasional interesting female, and it works for a while, but then it inevitably slides towards flirting and the subtle sexual dance. My thoughts turn towards sex, I start acting differently, sitting close, talking and making jokes, steering things towards sexual escalation, and so on. This is mostly uncontrollable; the meat does as it was programmed to. This ends up distracting from the real reason I might want to be friends with this person; they were intellectually interesting. (This has happened at least five times.)
So why “subhuman”? I’ve gotten pretty good at noticing the social game and the behavior protocols. People act a lot differently depending on attraction and the gender match; with men and women there’s that flirty sexual undertone. It looks a lot like a dog sniffing another dog’s butt and then executing different behaviors depending on the result; subconscious, nonsentient, animal behavior.
I think I should be able to treat women as people instead of just automatically executing this absurd mating dance to the detriment of my plans and interests. It’s really frustruating to have the meat override me on this, and it makes me feel subhuman (have you read “Dune”? That kind of “subhuman”).
So I’m not just oversensitive to political correctness or a rapist monster, I just resent that flirting has root access to my motivations and interferes with my friendships.
Of course the sexual dance is a fun and valuable part of being human, like eating, sleeping, and playing, but I have bigger plans right now and I resent that those things aren’t optional.
What about interesting women that clearly aren’t available or most likely don’t find you attractive?
How about women you don’t find attractive?
Dunno. Can’t think of any examples. Probably don’t even notice them as people or something horrible like that.
That’s a shame. I’ve had some very good close platonic relationships with men in the past (especially at university) where there’s been a lack of attraction on both sides.
[I wasn’t attracted to them, and since they were mostly single and generally pretty confident with women, it’s likely they would have told me if they had been attracted to me].
Nyan_sandwich, how about interesting women that clearly aren’t available or most likely don’t find you attractive?
(I’m replying to the wrong comment again.)
As they say: the vodka is good but the meat is rotten. Seriously, I think you should just try to exert your self-control to the extent that you manage to, whenever you find that this might be a problem. Eventually, your behavior will improve and it will not require as much effort to maintain.
(Do realize however, that there’s nothing wrong with light flirting persay. It’s not even clear that it would hinder you from pursuing intellectual interests with your female friends.)
The point of my rant was that I’ve lost faith that it’s worth it to bring out the big magical-free-will guns, as opposed to just disengaging.
Well, TBH, I’m still unsure about that. Have you been approaching this problem with a goal of changing your behavior for the better in the long term, as opposed to simply plowing through and overpowering your instincts occasionally? It could make a difference.
Moreover, it’s possible (IMHO) that disengaging outright from socially interacting with women may not work well at all, in terms of helping you achieve your goals. Honestly, I find your experience to be mildly surprising. My understanding is that guys (or guys who have attained a reasonable level of maturity and self-knowledge, at any rate, as you surely have) do not typically have this kind of self-control problem.
Note that, if we assume that mating behavior approaches 0% of a social interaction without reaching it, experiencing this kind of problem depends on the ratio of self-knowledge to self-control.
Thanks for being honest and open about this.
I agree that willpower isn’t a solution. How much time have you spent brainstorming- literally and explicitly brainstorming- other solutions? There might be Third Alternatives out there which would allow you to enjoy the company of other women without sliding into those habits.
(Important addendum: when I have a problem this significant, I first brainstorm about any roots of the problem I can find, reducing it as far as possible: e.g. my issues with overcompetitiveness and anxiety boiled down in part to a defense strategy self-narrative I used unconsciously as a kid to feel better about having few friends, and realizing this made it easier to discard that self-narrative now that I have many friends. Only when I don’t feel confused about the roots of the problem do I work on brainstorming explicit plans and actions.)
So, you are disgusted with biology in general, with the fact that biological programs have so much power over your mind. The male reproductive instincts are just one part of a larger repulsive whole, perhaps the part which interferes most strongly with your intellectual goals. Do I get that correctly?