I want to largely but not totally agree with this comment.
I agree that the sort of rhetoric that often gets used in talking about these things has these effects (and part of this post might). However, I think much of this post will actually help counteract that sort of thing.
See, here’s my mental model: The sort of men we’re talking about, who overcompensate to avoid being creepy—they’re doing this because they just know to not be creepy; they don’t have a good concrete any idea of what that means, they just know the general direction of it and that it’s bad. And so they step back from anything they think might at all be over the line and… well, you know the rest. Of course, they don’t realize that they were never anywhere near the line in the first place, because the things that are actually over the line are things they wouldn’t even think of doing in the first place. Having actual examples then is helpful because it allows you to see, “Wait, that’s a typical example of what’s over the line? I guess I was never anywhere near the line in the first place after all.”
A lot of the rhetoric that gets thrown around about this sort of thing, it’s easy to get the impression that if you ever ask twice about something, even if much time has passed and the context is totally different, you’re not respecting their “no” and you’re a bad person. This post might not help against that particular misconception[0] (and yes, might even reinforce it) because it doesn’t address that particular axis; nonetheless, examples are helpful in addressing this sort of problem generally, I think.
(Examples of what is OK would help even more, but I guess this post is not really the place for that.)
[0]My own rule of thumb in general—not specifically for things like this, where I have little experience, just when it comes to asking people for things in general—is, asking a second time for confirmation is sensible; asking a third time is beginning to badger the person (assuming the context hasn’t changed in a way that would affect the result). (I don’t know, do people think that’s a sensible rule of thumb? I should hope I’m at least correct in stating that the idea that asking for anything twice ever is disrespectful is a misconception...)
The sort of men we’re talking about, who overcompensate to avoid being creepy—they’re doing this because they just know to not be creepy; they don’t have a good concrete any idea of what that means, they just know the general direction of it and that it’s bad. And so they step back from anything they think might at all be over the line and… well, you know the rest. Of course, they don’t realize that they were never anywhere near the line in the first place, because the things that are actually over the line are things they wouldn’t even think of doing in the first place. Having actual examples then is helpful because it allows you to see, “Wait, that’s a typical example of what’s over the line? I guess I was never anywhere near the line in the first place after all.”
Except we frequently do get called “creepy” when we approach it.
I want to largely but not totally agree with this comment.
I agree that the sort of rhetoric that often gets used in talking about these things has these effects (and part of this post might). However, I think much of this post will actually help counteract that sort of thing.
See, here’s my mental model: The sort of men we’re talking about, who overcompensate to avoid being creepy—they’re doing this because they just know to not be creepy; they don’t have a good concrete any idea of what that means, they just know the general direction of it and that it’s bad. And so they step back from anything they think might at all be over the line and… well, you know the rest. Of course, they don’t realize that they were never anywhere near the line in the first place, because the things that are actually over the line are things they wouldn’t even think of doing in the first place. Having actual examples then is helpful because it allows you to see, “Wait, that’s a typical example of what’s over the line? I guess I was never anywhere near the line in the first place after all.”
A lot of the rhetoric that gets thrown around about this sort of thing, it’s easy to get the impression that if you ever ask twice about something, even if much time has passed and the context is totally different, you’re not respecting their “no” and you’re a bad person. This post might not help against that particular misconception[0] (and yes, might even reinforce it) because it doesn’t address that particular axis; nonetheless, examples are helpful in addressing this sort of problem generally, I think.
(Examples of what is OK would help even more, but I guess this post is not really the place for that.)
[0]My own rule of thumb in general—not specifically for things like this, where I have little experience, just when it comes to asking people for things in general—is, asking a second time for confirmation is sensible; asking a third time is beginning to badger the person (assuming the context hasn’t changed in a way that would affect the result). (I don’t know, do people think that’s a sensible rule of thumb? I should hope I’m at least correct in stating that the idea that asking for anything twice ever is disrespectful is a misconception...)
Except we frequently do get called “creepy” when we approach it.