Uh—improving neq1′s state of knowledge was not the intended purpose of that post.
I have already written literally dozens of posts attempting to improving the state of knowledge of other participants on this thread. That post was publicly explaining why I am now likely to stop—just so there is no subsequent confusion about the issue.
Right—but I call a spade a spade, don’t beat about the bush, say what I think—etc.
Insulating others from what I think in order to protect their egos is not my style. If I did that people would always be wondering if I meant what I said—or whether I was shielding them from my true opinions in order to protect their egos. In the long run, it is best to just speak the truth, as I see it, IMO. At least then, others know where I stand.
There are a lot of approaches one can take when interacting with other people. Your approach leads me to not want to make your acquaintance. The same isn’t true for most of the other people here, even the ones who disagree with me.
In the spirit of experimentation, I’m going to try giving up being oblique.
My primary motivation is not to do you a favor. My purpose is also not to protect neq1.
It is to convey that the purpose of this website is to work on thinking clearly, to some extent to further the creation of FAI, and also to improve skills at living. There’s also a little pleasant socializing.
However, insulting people (or having an atmosphere where insults are accepted) does not further any of the purposes of the site.
I believe that people generally think less well when they’ve been insulted. Also, I’ve been online for a long time. Insults are pretty much similar to each other—in other words, they’re noise, not signal so far as anything about the world generally is concerned.. They’re signal about emotional state and/or attempted dominance, but (as should be clear from the conversation so far), not a terribly clear signal.
What’s worse, insults are likely to lead to more insults.
I’m not a moderator, but I’m asking you not to dump hostility here.
Nancy, your beliefs about the average effect of insults on people do not seem to me to be a good reason to avoid bluntly telling people when they are behaving badly. IMO, you are not properly considering the positive effects of pointing out such bad behaviour. If someone behaves badly, and you don’t tell them, they don’t learn. Others might think their behaviour is acceptable. Still others might think you approve of their behaviour—and so on. It is not as though I had not tried all manner of rational argument first. Yes, people might be insulted or offended by someone else pointing out what is going on—if it reflects badly on them, but that is—ultimately—their business.
Not especially—and certainly not from my point of view. Alas, I found responding to your comments to be a waste of my time and energy. Especially so with your “oblique” comments. So, overall, I would rather you had not bothered commenting in the first place.
In the spirit of experimentation, I’m going to try giving up being oblique.
My primary motivation is not to do you a favor. My purpose is also not to protect neq1.
It is to convey that the purpose of this website is to work on thinking clearly, to some extent to further the creation of FAI, and also to improve skills at living. There’s also a little pleasant socializing.
However, insulting people (or having an atmosphere where insults are accepted) does not further any of the purposes of the site.
I believe that people generally think less well when they’ve been insulted. Also, I’ve been online for a long time. Insults are pretty much similar to each other—in other words, they’re noise, not signal so far as anything about the world generally is concerned.. They’re signal about emotional state and/or attempted dominance, but (as should be clear from the conversation so far), not a terribly clear signal.
What’s worse, insults are likely to lead to more insults.
I’m not a moderator, but I’m asking you not to dump hostility here.
In the spirit of experimentation, I’m going to try giving up being oblique.
My primary motivation is not to do you a favor. My purpose is also not to protect neq1.
It is to convey that the purpose of this website is to work on thinking clearly, to some extent to further the creation of FAI, and also to improve skills at living. There’s also a little pleasant socializing.
However, insulting people (or having an atmosphere where insults are accepted) does not further any of the purposes of the site.
I believe that people generally think less well when they’ve been insulted. Also, I’ve been online for a long time. Insults are pretty much similar to each other—in other words, they’re noise, not signal so far as anything about the world generally is concerned.. They’re signal about emotional state and/or attempted dominance, but (as should be clear from the conversation so far), not a terribly clear signal.
What’s worse, insults are likely to lead to more insults.
I’m not a moderator, but I’m asking you not to dump hostility here.
In the spirit of experimentation, I’m going to try giving up being oblique.
My primary motivation is not to do you a favor. My purpose is also not to protect neq1.
It is to convey that the purpose of this website is to work on thinking clearly, to some extent to further the creation of FAI, and also to improve skills at living. There’s also a little pleasant socializing.
However, insulting people (or having an atmosphere where insults are accepted) does not further any of the purposes of the site.
I believe that people generally think less well when they’ve been insulted. Also, I’ve been online for a long time. Insults are pretty much similar to each other—in other words, they’re noise, not signal so far as anything about the world generally is concerned.. They’re signal about emotional state and/or attempted dominance, but (as should be clear from the conversation so far), not a terribly clear signal.
What’s worse, insults are likely to lead to more insults.
I’m not a moderator, but I’m asking you not to dump hostility here.
But there are probably an infinite number of propositions that you actually believe, and even an infinite number of relevant propositions that you actually believe. You choose which things that you think to actually say (I’m just assuming that everything you think ‘out loud’ doesn’t get posted to Less Wrong, since I assume you have more thoughts than I’ve observed comments from you). As long as you’re leaving out an infinite amount of information, you might as well also leave out insulting language.
I said he was asking “silly questions”. However, that is true—and was not “insulting language”. If you think I was using “insulting language”, you will have to be more specific about what you mean.
As to the possibility of you making a more general point, IMO, systematically not speaking truths that might cause offense would have bad results—especially for truth-seekers:
“Unfortunately some people take offense more easily than others. Also, some people are offended by true statements.”
It is the same with pressuring other people to not speak truths that might cause offense. That too, would have—and has had—seriously unpleasant long-term effects.
That was implied information: “it seems to me as though there is little point in continuing to point them out. You can’t say I didn’t try to help you sort yourself out.”
“Likely to stop” is a probabalistic statement. I am still likely to stop posting on this thread soon. I have done my bit to promote the correct answer to this problem. A top level post explains the correct answer in some detail. I feel as though my work here is done.
Were someone else exhibiting similar posting behavior, would you draw the same conclusion? You may sincerely desire to terminate your conversation with neq1, but you appear to cesire* to continue it.
* A “cesire” is a motivator to action that works like a desire even when accompanied by a conflicting desire—much like an alief can induce emotional reactions in the same way as beliefs even in the presence of a contrary belief.
The conclusion that you feel your work is done. Such a state removes the desire to continue responding to neq1, and—as such a desire is the only apparent reason to respond to neq1 - leads to a cessation of posts in the associated thread(s). This has not occurred.
I haven’t argued about the topic of this post for a little while now—and certainly not since writing “I feel as though my work here is done”.
Rather I am here defending my reputation against assaults from people who don’t like my posting style—and seem keen to let everyone else know of their disapproval. I’ll probably give up with that too, soon enough.
Were someone else exhibiting similar posting behavior, would you draw the same conclusion? You may sincerely desire to terminate your conversation with neq1, but you appear to cesire* to continue it.
* A “cesire” is a motivator to action that works like a desire even when accompanied by a conflicting desire—much like an alief can induce emotional reactions in the same way as beliefs even in the presence of a contrary belief.
Uh—improving neq1′s state of knowledge was not the intended purpose of that post.
I have already written literally dozens of posts attempting to improving the state of knowledge of other participants on this thread. That post was publicly explaining why I am now likely to stop—just so there is no subsequent confusion about the issue.
I think
would have gone over better.
Right—but I call a spade a spade, don’t beat about the bush, say what I think—etc.
Insulating others from what I think in order to protect their egos is not my style. If I did that people would always be wondering if I meant what I said—or whether I was shielding them from my true opinions in order to protect their egos. In the long run, it is best to just speak the truth, as I see it, IMO. At least then, others know where I stand.
There are a lot of approaches one can take when interacting with other people. Your approach leads me to not want to make your acquaintance. The same isn’t true for most of the other people here, even the ones who disagree with me.
In that case, I would recommend you shut up as soon as possible. If, as you said,
then stop wasting your time.
Thanks for your proposal about how to optimise my time management.
I think you are best leaving that issue to me, though—I have more relevant information about the topic than you do.
In the spirit of experimentation, I’m going to try giving up being oblique.
My primary motivation is not to do you a favor. My purpose is also not to protect neq1.
It is to convey that the purpose of this website is to work on thinking clearly, to some extent to further the creation of FAI, and also to improve skills at living. There’s also a little pleasant socializing.
However, insulting people (or having an atmosphere where insults are accepted) does not further any of the purposes of the site.
I believe that people generally think less well when they’ve been insulted. Also, I’ve been online for a long time. Insults are pretty much similar to each other—in other words, they’re noise, not signal so far as anything about the world generally is concerned.. They’re signal about emotional state and/or attempted dominance, but (as should be clear from the conversation so far), not a terribly clear signal.
What’s worse, insults are likely to lead to more insults.
I’m not a moderator, but I’m asking you not to dump hostility here.
Nancy, your beliefs about the average effect of insults on people do not seem to me to be a good reason to avoid bluntly telling people when they are behaving badly. IMO, you are not properly considering the positive effects of pointing out such bad behaviour. If someone behaves badly, and you don’t tell them, they don’t learn. Others might think their behaviour is acceptable. Still others might think you approve of their behaviour—and so on. It is not as though I had not tried all manner of rational argument first. Yes, people might be insulted or offended by someone else pointing out what is going on—if it reflects badly on them, but that is—ultimately—their business.
I’ve told you rather bluntly that I don’t approve of your behavior, though I think I’ve managed to avoid insulting your intelligence or character.
Do you think the world is a better place as a result?
Not especially—and certainly not from my point of view. Alas, I found responding to your comments to be a waste of my time and energy. Especially so with your “oblique” comments. So, overall, I would rather you had not bothered commenting in the first place.
I apologize.
In the spirit of experimentation, I’m going to try giving up being oblique.
My primary motivation is not to do you a favor. My purpose is also not to protect neq1.
It is to convey that the purpose of this website is to work on thinking clearly, to some extent to further the creation of FAI, and also to improve skills at living. There’s also a little pleasant socializing.
However, insulting people (or having an atmosphere where insults are accepted) does not further any of the purposes of the site.
I believe that people generally think less well when they’ve been insulted. Also, I’ve been online for a long time. Insults are pretty much similar to each other—in other words, they’re noise, not signal so far as anything about the world generally is concerned.. They’re signal about emotional state and/or attempted dominance, but (as should be clear from the conversation so far), not a terribly clear signal.
What’s worse, insults are likely to lead to more insults.
I’m not a moderator, but I’m asking you not to dump hostility here.
In the spirit of experimentation, I’m going to try giving up being oblique.
My primary motivation is not to do you a favor. My purpose is also not to protect neq1.
It is to convey that the purpose of this website is to work on thinking clearly, to some extent to further the creation of FAI, and also to improve skills at living. There’s also a little pleasant socializing.
However, insulting people (or having an atmosphere where insults are accepted) does not further any of the purposes of the site.
I believe that people generally think less well when they’ve been insulted. Also, I’ve been online for a long time. Insults are pretty much similar to each other—in other words, they’re noise, not signal so far as anything about the world generally is concerned.. They’re signal about emotional state and/or attempted dominance, but (as should be clear from the conversation so far), not a terribly clear signal.
What’s worse, insults are likely to lead to more insults.
I’m not a moderator, but I’m asking you not to dump hostility here.
In the spirit of experimentation, I’m going to try giving up being oblique.
My primary motivation is not to do you a favor. My purpose is also not to protect neq1.
It is to convey that the purpose of this website is to work on thinking clearly, to some extent to further the creation of FAI, and also to improve skills at living. There’s also a little pleasant socializing.
However, insulting people (or having an atmosphere where insults are accepted) does not further any of the purposes of the site.
I believe that people generally think less well when they’ve been insulted. Also, I’ve been online for a long time. Insults are pretty much similar to each other—in other words, they’re noise, not signal so far as anything about the world generally is concerned.. They’re signal about emotional state and/or attempted dominance, but (as should be clear from the conversation so far), not a terribly clear signal.
What’s worse, insults are likely to lead to more insults.
I’m not a moderator, but I’m asking you not to dump hostility here.
But there are probably an infinite number of propositions that you actually believe, and even an infinite number of relevant propositions that you actually believe. You choose which things that you think to actually say (I’m just assuming that everything you think ‘out loud’ doesn’t get posted to Less Wrong, since I assume you have more thoughts than I’ve observed comments from you). As long as you’re leaving out an infinite amount of information, you might as well also leave out insulting language.
I said he was asking “silly questions”. However, that is true—and was not “insulting language”. If you think I was using “insulting language”, you will have to be more specific about what you mean.
As to the possibility of you making a more general point, IMO, systematically not speaking truths that might cause offense would have bad results—especially for truth-seekers:
“Unfortunately some people take offense more easily than others. Also, some people are offended by true statements.”
http://timtyler.org/political_correctness/
It is the same with pressuring other people to not speak truths that might cause offense. That too, would have—and has had—seriously unpleasant long-term effects.
You didn’t mention that you were likely to stop posting in the thread.
That was implied information: “it seems to me as though there is little point in continuing to point them out. You can’t say I didn’t try to help you sort yourself out.”
Your continued involvement in the conversation was stronger information.
“Likely to stop” is a probabalistic statement. I am still likely to stop posting on this thread soon. I have done my bit to promote the correct answer to this problem. A top level post explains the correct answer in some detail. I feel as though my work here is done.
Were someone else exhibiting similar posting behavior, would you draw the same conclusion? You may sincerely desire to terminate your conversation with neq1, but you appear to cesire* to continue it.
* A “cesire” is a motivator to action that works like a desire even when accompanied by a conflicting desire—much like an alief can induce emotional reactions in the same way as beliefs even in the presence of a contrary belief.
Your question seems vague: Similar posting behavior to what posting behaviour? - and by whom? Would I draw the same conclusion—as which conclusion?
The conclusion that you feel your work is done. Such a state removes the desire to continue responding to neq1, and—as such a desire is the only apparent reason to respond to neq1 - leads to a cessation of posts in the associated thread(s). This has not occurred.
I haven’t argued about the topic of this post for a little while now—and certainly not since writing “I feel as though my work here is done”.
Rather I am here defending my reputation against assaults from people who don’t like my posting style—and seem keen to let everyone else know of their disapproval. I’ll probably give up with that too, soon enough.
Were someone else exhibiting similar posting behavior, would you draw the same conclusion? You may sincerely desire to terminate your conversation with neq1, but you appear to cesire* to continue it.
* A “cesire” is a motivator to action that works like a desire even when accompanied by a conflicting desire—much like an alief can induce emotional reactions in the same way as beliefs even in the presence of a contrary belief.