I didn’t quote you at all (aside from the very opening bit, which was verbatim, and a few words later in quotation marks), I paraphrased you. It wasn’t my intention to paraphrase inaccurately, and I’m sorry if you consider that I did.
On the substantive question: first of all, there is a difference between what you say (“just 39% of the cash transfers boosted assets”) and what the paper actually says (on average, assets were boosted by 39% of the cash transferred), and I think it’s an important one. Secondly, we are talking here not about businesses but about people, and (regrettable though it may be) people need to eat. If you give money to someone whose family is close to starvation, and they spend a lot of the money on food, that is a good outcome.
(The portion of my comment that offended you was small; have you nothing to say about any of the rest?)
[EDITED to add: Er, of course maybe other bits offended you too; I meant “the portion that you singled out for comment and complaint”. EDITED again some days later, to clarify a bit of wording that on reflection was much less clear than I’d thought it was.]
If you give money to someone whose family is close to starvation, and they spend a lot of the money on food, that is a good outcome
Spending a lot of money on food is an action, it is not an outcome. You seem to want to imply that this action necessarily leads to good outcomes like not dying from starvation or not losing one’s potential because of malnutrition—but that’s a much higher bar to clear. In some cases this is so, but in other cases consumption spending is essentially wasted (other than generating a few hedons).
Fair comment. So let me make a slightly less ambitious claim: If you give money to someone whose family is close to starvation, and they spend a lot of the money on food, that is on the face of it a good thing and shouldn’t be assumed to be wasted merely because it’s spending rather than investment.
As to whether the extra spending on food really was beneficial, it’s hard to tell. The study looked at various health outcomes (conclusion: there seems to be no discernible overall improvement in their “health” index from the cash transfers they looked at; some individual measures, incidentally including the ones most obviously related to nutrition, seem to have improved, but one must beware of data-mining) and at measures of “food security” (which did improve substantially and significantly, but you might say that again they are measuring actions rather than outcomes).
other than generating a few hedons
Generating hedons efficiently is in fact a large fraction of what effective altruism is about. (At least for me; others may differ.) One of the reasons why sending money to places like sub-Saharan Africa seems like a promising approach is that hedons should be much cheaper there than, say, in Ireland or Canada.
Generating hedons efficiently is in fact a large fraction of what effective altruism is about.
Hm. That seems to point directly to wireheading.
However it seems to me that one of the things at the core of this discussion is the far-view vs. the near-view difference. Crudely speaking, “teach a man to fish instead of giving him a fish” vs. “future success at fishing is useless to one dying of starvation right now”...
Pure hedon-maximization has that problem, yes, which is one reason why few people who’ve thought about the issues endorse that. But most systems of ethics include something that looks at least a bit like hedon-maximization. (Preference-satisfaction maximization. Maximization of things that usually lead to hedons. Maximization of hedons with some kind of weighting that values different kind of pleasures differently. …) I don’t think there are many people or cultures whose values don’t say that it’s generally better for a very hungry person to get a good meal.
Perhaps what you had in mind when talking about wasted consumption spending was spending on things much more frivolous than food. That’s hard to assess, but the study we’re discussing did distinguish a category of “temptation goods”: alcohol, tobacco, and gambling. (I don’t know why that particular choice of three.) They found that spending on these was not higher with cash transfers. (In their tables, I can find the entries for alcohol and tobacco—spending on those appears to be lower for recipients of cash transfers, though the difference wasn’t statistically significant. I don’t see any numbers for gambling.)
Hedons are, of course, good things, it’s the word “efficiently” which hinted at wireheading for me. And there is a tension between “some hedons right now” and “potentially more hedons, but later”.
(I don’t know why that particular choice of three.)
These are the traditional “sin” products (they’re missing loose women in that list X-D).
From a hedon perspective, I am not sure why a pot of rice is better than a jug of palm wine.
No, I have nothing to say about the rest of your comment. I think productive discussion normally requires that both participants feel the other is arguing in good faith. I don’t feel that.
I didn’t quote you at all (aside from the very opening bit, which was verbatim, and a few words later in quotation marks), I paraphrased you. It wasn’t my intention to paraphrase inaccurately, and I’m sorry if you consider that I did.
On the substantive question: first of all, there is a difference between what you say (“just 39% of the cash transfers boosted assets”) and what the paper actually says (on average, assets were boosted by 39% of the cash transferred), and I think it’s an important one. Secondly, we are talking here not about businesses but about people, and (regrettable though it may be) people need to eat. If you give money to someone whose family is close to starvation, and they spend a lot of the money on food, that is a good outcome.
(The portion of my comment that offended you was small; have you nothing to say about any of the rest?)
[EDITED to add: Er, of course maybe other bits offended you too; I meant “the portion that you singled out for comment and complaint”. EDITED again some days later, to clarify a bit of wording that on reflection was much less clear than I’d thought it was.]
Spending a lot of money on food is an action, it is not an outcome. You seem to want to imply that this action necessarily leads to good outcomes like not dying from starvation or not losing one’s potential because of malnutrition—but that’s a much higher bar to clear. In some cases this is so, but in other cases consumption spending is essentially wasted (other than generating a few hedons).
Fair comment. So let me make a slightly less ambitious claim: If you give money to someone whose family is close to starvation, and they spend a lot of the money on food, that is on the face of it a good thing and shouldn’t be assumed to be wasted merely because it’s spending rather than investment.
As to whether the extra spending on food really was beneficial, it’s hard to tell. The study looked at various health outcomes (conclusion: there seems to be no discernible overall improvement in their “health” index from the cash transfers they looked at; some individual measures, incidentally including the ones most obviously related to nutrition, seem to have improved, but one must beware of data-mining) and at measures of “food security” (which did improve substantially and significantly, but you might say that again they are measuring actions rather than outcomes).
Generating hedons efficiently is in fact a large fraction of what effective altruism is about. (At least for me; others may differ.) One of the reasons why sending money to places like sub-Saharan Africa seems like a promising approach is that hedons should be much cheaper there than, say, in Ireland or Canada.
Hm. That seems to point directly to wireheading.
However it seems to me that one of the things at the core of this discussion is the far-view vs. the near-view difference. Crudely speaking, “teach a man to fish instead of giving him a fish” vs. “future success at fishing is useless to one dying of starvation right now”...
Pure hedon-maximization has that problem, yes, which is one reason why few people who’ve thought about the issues endorse that. But most systems of ethics include something that looks at least a bit like hedon-maximization. (Preference-satisfaction maximization. Maximization of things that usually lead to hedons. Maximization of hedons with some kind of weighting that values different kind of pleasures differently. …) I don’t think there are many people or cultures whose values don’t say that it’s generally better for a very hungry person to get a good meal.
Perhaps what you had in mind when talking about wasted consumption spending was spending on things much more frivolous than food. That’s hard to assess, but the study we’re discussing did distinguish a category of “temptation goods”: alcohol, tobacco, and gambling. (I don’t know why that particular choice of three.) They found that spending on these was not higher with cash transfers. (In their tables, I can find the entries for alcohol and tobacco—spending on those appears to be lower for recipients of cash transfers, though the difference wasn’t statistically significant. I don’t see any numbers for gambling.)
Hedons are, of course, good things, it’s the word “efficiently” which hinted at wireheading for me. And there is a tension between “some hedons right now” and “potentially more hedons, but later”.
These are the traditional “sin” products (they’re missing loose women in that list X-D).
From a hedon perspective, I am not sure why a pot of rice is better than a jug of palm wine.
So you’re doubling down. Ok, whatever.
No, I have nothing to say about the rest of your comment. I think productive discussion normally requires that both participants feel the other is arguing in good faith. I don’t feel that.