Being aware of the Western canon is pretty much the place to start for a serious discussion on best things ever in literature, even though you might end up preferring stuff that’s quite different from it.
I will note that I was talking about “the best things I’ve read”, as opposed to “the best things ever.” With “best” being defined as “the things I’m most glad to have read.”
I’m reading Moby Dick, and I’ve read a few “good classics,” and I can understand why they have the respect they do, and I can learn some important things about writing from them, and they’re still good centuries after the fact, so they clearly did something right.… but I really don’t enjoy them at all.
I don’t like having to “translate” an earlier/different version of the English language just to understand the story (though I understand why literature buffs feel enriched by it). And often the themes of the story have since become so ingrained in our culture that by the time I read the original version I feel let down.
I comprehend their majesty, but they aren’t the works that particularly impact me.
HP:MoR happened to come at a time in my life when I was receptive to its message, and before I had really read anything that even attempted to be inspirational on the order that HP:MoR attempts to be inspirational. I don’t know how much of my appreciation for the work has to do with the context I read it in. I’m specifically looking for other inspirational works so I can try and evaluate it properly against its peers/superiors.
Ignoring the propaganda side of it, it’s still one of the most enjoyable works I’ve read. For the humor, and the depth of the characters, and the seriousness with which certain issues are tackles. Some people criticize the uneven-ness of the writing style, but I think the way it seesaws between hilariousness and solemnity is one of the best things about it. I also identified a lot of literary techniques that were well executed and rewarded deeper analysis.
I totally get that it’s not for everyone though. Some of the characters are developed awkwardly in the beginning. One of my biggest issues with it is that Eliezer unnecessarily narrows his target audience by focusing/ignoring certain things (as well as by sounding preachy, even when Harry’s actually supposed to be wrong).
Being aware of the Western canon is pretty much the place to start for a serious discussion on best things ever in literature, even though you might end up preferring stuff that’s quite different from it.
I strongly disagree, actually. Works that’re part of the Western canon aren’t necessarily the best in the Western literary tradition, and they aren’t necessarily read for their quality—although many of them genuinely are very good. They’re defined more by being influential, and reading them is more about gaining a better understanding of the context of literature: its history and the mechanics of its evolution. People like Shakespeare are to English literature what people like Aristotle are to Western philosophy: not the best by some set of quasi-objective standards, nor the most gratifying to taste, but the headwaters from which later traditions flow. There’s a certain amount of survivorship bias involved, too; Sappho for example was arguably the best Classical Greek poet by her contemporaries’ standards, and we can be almost sure of her influence, but so little of her stuff is left that she’s not a major part of the canon.
There’s an argument to be had over whether this is necessarily the best way to teach or learn about literature, of course, just as we could have the same argument over philosophy. But that’s not really the point.
They’re defined more by being influential, and reading them is more about gaining a better understanding of the context of literature: its history and the mechanics of its evolution.
I’m not disagreeing. The main point is that the literature canon is the most influential starting point for discussing literature that’s considered really very good. Not that the books themselves would necessarily be the best ever.
And for the purposes of the original discussion, it’s not even necessary to find the absolutely best literature ever, only examples of literature that can be considered significantly more skillfully put together than top of the line fanfiction. The Western canon probably manages this.
People like Shakespeare are to English literature what people like Aristotle are to Western philosophy: not the best by some set of quasi-objective standards, nor the most gratifying to taste, but the headwaters from which later traditions flow.
Is this actually the case? Philosophers seem to consider Aristotle really influential and quite outdated, while English lit. people who aren’t decrying him as a dead white male patriarchal oppressor still seem to think Shakespeare was probably the greatest thing ever.
Is this actually the case? Philosophers seem to consider Aristotle really influential and quite outdated, while English lit. people who aren’t decrying him as a dead white male patriarchal oppressor still seem to think Shakespeare was probably the greatest thing ever.
If you asked some modern philosophers to make a list of the greatest philosophers of all time, and then asked English lit professors to make a list of the greatest English writers of all time, the relative rankings of Aristotle and Shakespeare would likely be close to each other (though probably not identical). And I think the reason for this is that they’re ranking—and teaching, and recommending—mainly along lines of influence rather than technical skill or correctness or enjoyment. The precise terms each are described in might be different, but in terms of their place in their fields I think the analogy’s pretty close.
I do think that Shakespeare by most standards would look better than Aristotle relative to his counterparts today: literature was a more mature field in his time than philosophy was in Aristotle’s. But I don’t think he was the most technically skilled writer in English, not by a long shot, and I suspect most literary scholars (Shakespeare scholars excepted) would agree with me.
Being aware of the Western canon is pretty much the place to start for a serious discussion on best things ever in literature, even though you might end up preferring stuff that’s quite different from it.
For a bit more contemporary stuff, I find Jeff VanderMeer’s essential reading list intriguing. VanderMeer’s own stuff is seriously awesome as well.
I will note that I was talking about “the best things I’ve read”, as opposed to “the best things ever.” With “best” being defined as “the things I’m most glad to have read.”
I’m reading Moby Dick, and I’ve read a few “good classics,” and I can understand why they have the respect they do, and I can learn some important things about writing from them, and they’re still good centuries after the fact, so they clearly did something right.… but I really don’t enjoy them at all.
I don’t like having to “translate” an earlier/different version of the English language just to understand the story (though I understand why literature buffs feel enriched by it). And often the themes of the story have since become so ingrained in our culture that by the time I read the original version I feel let down.
I comprehend their majesty, but they aren’t the works that particularly impact me.
HP:MoR happened to come at a time in my life when I was receptive to its message, and before I had really read anything that even attempted to be inspirational on the order that HP:MoR attempts to be inspirational. I don’t know how much of my appreciation for the work has to do with the context I read it in. I’m specifically looking for other inspirational works so I can try and evaluate it properly against its peers/superiors.
Ignoring the propaganda side of it, it’s still one of the most enjoyable works I’ve read. For the humor, and the depth of the characters, and the seriousness with which certain issues are tackles. Some people criticize the uneven-ness of the writing style, but I think the way it seesaws between hilariousness and solemnity is one of the best things about it. I also identified a lot of literary techniques that were well executed and rewarded deeper analysis.
I totally get that it’s not for everyone though. Some of the characters are developed awkwardly in the beginning. One of my biggest issues with it is that Eliezer unnecessarily narrows his target audience by focusing/ignoring certain things (as well as by sounding preachy, even when Harry’s actually supposed to be wrong).
I strongly disagree, actually. Works that’re part of the Western canon aren’t necessarily the best in the Western literary tradition, and they aren’t necessarily read for their quality—although many of them genuinely are very good. They’re defined more by being influential, and reading them is more about gaining a better understanding of the context of literature: its history and the mechanics of its evolution. People like Shakespeare are to English literature what people like Aristotle are to Western philosophy: not the best by some set of quasi-objective standards, nor the most gratifying to taste, but the headwaters from which later traditions flow. There’s a certain amount of survivorship bias involved, too; Sappho for example was arguably the best Classical Greek poet by her contemporaries’ standards, and we can be almost sure of her influence, but so little of her stuff is left that she’s not a major part of the canon.
There’s an argument to be had over whether this is necessarily the best way to teach or learn about literature, of course, just as we could have the same argument over philosophy. But that’s not really the point.
I’m not disagreeing. The main point is that the literature canon is the most influential starting point for discussing literature that’s considered really very good. Not that the books themselves would necessarily be the best ever.
And for the purposes of the original discussion, it’s not even necessary to find the absolutely best literature ever, only examples of literature that can be considered significantly more skillfully put together than top of the line fanfiction. The Western canon probably manages this.
Is this actually the case? Philosophers seem to consider Aristotle really influential and quite outdated, while English lit. people who aren’t decrying him as a dead white male patriarchal oppressor still seem to think Shakespeare was probably the greatest thing ever.
If you asked some modern philosophers to make a list of the greatest philosophers of all time, and then asked English lit professors to make a list of the greatest English writers of all time, the relative rankings of Aristotle and Shakespeare would likely be close to each other (though probably not identical). And I think the reason for this is that they’re ranking—and teaching, and recommending—mainly along lines of influence rather than technical skill or correctness or enjoyment. The precise terms each are described in might be different, but in terms of their place in their fields I think the analogy’s pretty close.
I do think that Shakespeare by most standards would look better than Aristotle relative to his counterparts today: literature was a more mature field in his time than philosophy was in Aristotle’s. But I don’t think he was the most technically skilled writer in English, not by a long shot, and I suspect most literary scholars (Shakespeare scholars excepted) would agree with me.