What about the notion of a “negative sum” bias? I’m sure there is an appropriate technical term. The point being: what about the act of decreasing overall wealth as an act of personal enrichment, or of “relative improvement”?
For example, if I am in competition for a resource like grazing land, if I kill my neighbor’s cattle it leaves more resources for my enrichment...my wealth might increase even if overall wealth decreases. (this is something of a corollary to “Tragedy of the Commons”)
Alternately, if I am in competition for a resource like overall prestige, if I kill my neighbor’s cattle, I have more relative to him, even if my wealth is unchanged and overall wealth is decreased.
As a third issue, in relation specifically to civil war, there is “revenge bias”. Do we have more evolutionary bias towards summation or wealth issues? Or is it more about “give me my endorphines”? When we feel slighted, we will destroy things because the act of it makes us feel better.
Adrenaline trumps cortisol, is the evolutionary imperative here. Bad conditions, or bad actions, result in personal stress. Nothing relieves stress like violence, and revenge is especially sweet.
All three of these, in the end, are about “how good do you feel as a result of an act”. Extrapolating it to economic considerations might be going too far. The evolutionary imperative is more simple: the specific short term acts have physiological results, which are more tangible (in an evolutionary sense) than long term “wealth issues” (even while the long term wealth issue can reinforce the short term act as well).
Heck, ever see a cat pee on a computer as an act of “rebellion”? Where’s the summation of wealth there? The act of rebellion pre-exists the human condition.
Indeed, many of the of the ‘zero sum games’ we see in reality are actually more
like negative sum games, as one man’s gain is less than the other man’s
loss. However, I wouldn’t say there’s bias for that—in fact, it seems the
negative sum is often not recognized. Or?
Regarding the revenge bias, one reason sometimes mentioned for the worth some
cultures (past, and somewhat less, present) cultures put on revenge comes from
our pastoral past, where protecting your prestige, your honor would be of
crucial value, so other will not steal your sheep that you can only loosely
guard. The story then goes that the more closely connected a culture is
connected to some pastoral past, the more value it will but on vendetta and
revenge. Seems somewhat plausible, but hard to proof of course.
Indeed, many of the of the ‘zero sum games’ we see in reality are actually more like negative sum games, as one man’s gain is less than the other man’s loss. However, I wouldn’t say there’s bias for that—in fact, it seems the negative sum is often not recognized. Or?
Well, the relevant fact about zero-sum games is that their sum is constant—as long as that holds, worrying about its exact sign seems not too important...
Well, the relevant fact about zero-sum games is that their sum is constant
I’m not sure that the sum of “wealth” is constant, in a negative sum game. The willful destruction of someone else’s wealth/resources does not result in a constant sum...that wealth is destroyed. So the point is, there are zero-sum games, and non-zero-sum-games,and the question is where does the bias lie, at any given time?
You seem to have misunderstood some terms here. A general negative-sum game does not have a constant sum, no. But the constancy here is not constancy of sum between before game and after game; if that holds, you have a zero-sum game. The constancy here is over all options the players can take. If that holds, you can subtract out that constant to obtain a zero-sum game with equivalent strategy. A person who assumes all of a certain class of games sum to “1”, whatever that means, will have the same bias in his strategy as one who assumes that all such games sum to 0. The only difference is that he’d want to play more often.
I guess I need your analysis in a real world example, because I think we are talking too much about the “game” model.
If I kill your cattle, or I salt your earth, what is the sum? What is the constant? What is the bias?
My point is: the sum is negative, there is no constant, and the bias is towards “gratification”. I don’t think killing my competitors cattle comes from an inherent evolutionary-economic analysis...I think it comes from “doing this releases endorphines in my brain in the short term, I see his wealth destroyed and that seems good”. The bias is simply “relative success”...I win by gaining more, by losing less, or by making him lose more than me. It’s all very short term and emotional.
And going for relative sense makes sense when? In a zero-sum (or if you like, constant-sum) game. Though this may be getting away from the original statement?
What happens out there in the hurly-burly is not a “zero-sum” or “constant-sum” game. Specifically: it’s not a “game” at all.
Those games are distillations and models used for testing behavior. This tells us certain things about how people react and interact, but it doesn’t tell the whole story. Going for relative makes sense when you can’t take, you can’t (necessarily) earn, you can’t (in the short term) increase/generate. But you CAN win by destroying. You destroy your opponents resource, thereby “increasing” your wealth in a relative sense.
It’s why we bombed weapons plants during WW2, no? And to an extent, it’s why they salted the earth....
What about the notion of a “negative sum” bias? I’m sure there is an appropriate technical term. The point being: what about the act of decreasing overall wealth as an act of personal enrichment, or of “relative improvement”?
For example, if I am in competition for a resource like grazing land, if I kill my neighbor’s cattle it leaves more resources for my enrichment...my wealth might increase even if overall wealth decreases. (this is something of a corollary to “Tragedy of the Commons”)
Alternately, if I am in competition for a resource like overall prestige, if I kill my neighbor’s cattle, I have more relative to him, even if my wealth is unchanged and overall wealth is decreased.
As a third issue, in relation specifically to civil war, there is “revenge bias”. Do we have more evolutionary bias towards summation or wealth issues? Or is it more about “give me my endorphines”? When we feel slighted, we will destroy things because the act of it makes us feel better.
Adrenaline trumps cortisol, is the evolutionary imperative here. Bad conditions, or bad actions, result in personal stress. Nothing relieves stress like violence, and revenge is especially sweet.
All three of these, in the end, are about “how good do you feel as a result of an act”. Extrapolating it to economic considerations might be going too far. The evolutionary imperative is more simple: the specific short term acts have physiological results, which are more tangible (in an evolutionary sense) than long term “wealth issues” (even while the long term wealth issue can reinforce the short term act as well).
Heck, ever see a cat pee on a computer as an act of “rebellion”? Where’s the summation of wealth there? The act of rebellion pre-exists the human condition.
Indeed, many of the of the ‘zero sum games’ we see in reality are actually more like negative sum games, as one man’s gain is less than the other man’s loss. However, I wouldn’t say there’s bias for that—in fact, it seems the negative sum is often not recognized. Or?
Regarding the revenge bias, one reason sometimes mentioned for the worth some cultures (past, and somewhat less, present) cultures put on revenge comes from our pastoral past, where protecting your prestige, your honor would be of crucial value, so other will not steal your sheep that you can only loosely guard. The story then goes that the more closely connected a culture is connected to some pastoral past, the more value it will but on vendetta and revenge. Seems somewhat plausible, but hard to proof of course.
Well, the relevant fact about zero-sum games is that their sum is constant—as long as that holds, worrying about its exact sign seems not too important...
I’m not sure that the sum of “wealth” is constant, in a negative sum game. The willful destruction of someone else’s wealth/resources does not result in a constant sum...that wealth is destroyed.
So the point is, there are zero-sum games, and non-zero-sum-games,and the question is where does the bias lie, at any given time?
You seem to have misunderstood some terms here. A general negative-sum game does not have a constant sum, no. But the constancy here is not constancy of sum between before game and after game; if that holds, you have a zero-sum game. The constancy here is over all options the players can take. If that holds, you can subtract out that constant to obtain a zero-sum game with equivalent strategy. A person who assumes all of a certain class of games sum to “1”, whatever that means, will have the same bias in his strategy as one who assumes that all such games sum to 0. The only difference is that he’d want to play more often.
I guess I need your analysis in a real world example, because I think we are talking too much about the “game” model. If I kill your cattle, or I salt your earth, what is the sum? What is the constant? What is the bias? My point is: the sum is negative, there is no constant, and the bias is towards “gratification”.
I don’t think killing my competitors cattle comes from an inherent evolutionary-economic analysis...I think it comes from “doing this releases endorphines in my brain in the short term, I see his wealth destroyed and that seems good”.
The bias is simply “relative success”...I win by gaining more, by losing less, or by making him lose more than me. It’s all very short term and emotional.
And going for relative sense makes sense when? In a zero-sum (or if you like, constant-sum) game. Though this may be getting away from the original statement?
What happens out there in the hurly-burly is not a “zero-sum” or “constant-sum” game. Specifically: it’s not a “game” at all. Those games are distillations and models used for testing behavior. This tells us certain things about how people react and interact, but it doesn’t tell the whole story.
Going for relative makes sense when you can’t take, you can’t (necessarily) earn, you can’t (in the short term) increase/generate. But you CAN win by destroying. You destroy your opponents resource, thereby “increasing” your wealth in a relative sense. It’s why we bombed weapons plants during WW2, no? And to an extent, it’s why they salted the earth....