Wearing a suit in an inappropriate context is like wearing a fedora. It says “I am socially clueless enough to do random inappropriate things”. The fact that people will eventually stop asking you about the suit does not mean that you are no longer saying this message, nor does it mean that people will stop listening to it.
And if your reaction is “I’m just not conforming. I’m not harming anyone, why do they care?”, it’s sending a message. Messages don’t need to cause harm for people to react to them.
That’s because if you wear a suit in a casual culture, then you want to be sending the subconscious message It’s no big deal that I’m wearing a suit.
You have a limited ability to choose the message that your action sends. It may not be possible to wear the suit and avoid sending the message that you are socially clueless. You also have a limited ability to make people believe your message. You can send the message “I think the suit is no big deal”, but nobody is forced to agree that the suit is no big deal.
Wearing a suit in an inappropriate context is like wearing a fedora. It says “I am socially clueless enough to do random inappropriate things”.
“In an inappropriate context” is ambiguous. It can mean “in a context where people don’t normally wear suits” or it can mean “in a place where people consider it actively wrong to wear a suit”.
There are of course places of the latter type, like it would be very weird to wear a suit in a gym or swimming pool. But I don’t think lsusr would advocate that.
If you just mean “in a context where people don’t normally wear suits”, then wearing a suit in such a context could signal social cluelessness, but it could also signal confidence and self-esteem.
This reasoning would justify violating any social convention whatsoever. “Refusing to say ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ signals confidence and self-esteem”.
Yes, it does, but signalling those things and signalling social cluelessness are entwined. “My self esteem is more important than these petty rules” can mean that you think you are really important compared to the rules, or that the rules are unimportant compared to you. You’re also overrating self-esteem. Signalling self-esteem is often a bad thing.
(Remember how fedoras became a sign of cluelessness? It’s not very different from out of context suits.)
This reasoning would justify violating any social convention whatsoever. “Refusing to say ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ signals confidence and self-esteem”.
Wrong. I distinguished between conventions that people have a reason to respond negatively to if you violate them (e.g. wearing a suit to the gym or swimming pool which is stupid since it will ruin both your exercise and your suit), and behaviors that just happen to be unusual but not intrinsically negative. Refusing to say ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ would fall squarely in the category that people would have a reason to feel negative about.
My understanding is that fedoras became a sign of cluelessness because they got associated with groups like pick-up artists, which is also an explicit reason to have a negative reaction to them.
Refusing to say ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ would fall squarely in the category that people would have a reason to feel negative about.
It’s not like wearing a suit in a swimming pool. Never saying “thank you” doesn’t physically damage things. It just makes people upset because of the social inappropriateness, like the inappropriate suit.
Wearing a suit in an inappropriate context is like wearing a fedora. It says “I am socially clueless enough to do random inappropriate things”
This is far too broadly stated, the actual message people will take away from an unexpected suit is verrrrry context-dependent, depending on (among other things) who the suit-wearer is, who the people observing are, how the suit-wearer carries himself, the particular situation the suit is worn in, etc. etc. etc. Judging from the post it sounds like those things create an overall favorable impression for lsusr?(it’s hard to tell from just a post of course, but still)
Yeah, I started wearing a suit in specific contexts after many months of careful consideration. It’s not random at all. Everything about it is carefully considered, from the number of buttons on my jacket to the color of my shoes.
I mostly wear it around artists. Artists basically never wear suits where I live, but they really appreciate them because ① artists are particularly sensitive to aesthetic fundamentals and ② artists like creative clothing.
There’s a Korean expression that basicly seems to be “the look is right” or “the look fits” which seems in line with your comment. The same outfit, hat, shoes, glasses, jacket or even car for different people create a different image in other’s heads. There is a different message getting sent.
So if the overall point for the post is about the signaling then I suspect it is very important to consider the device one chooses to send messages like this. In other words, yes breaking some social/cultural standards to make certain points is fine but thought needs to be put into just how appropriately your chosen device/method “fits” you will probably have a fairly large impact on your success.
I suspect that holds just as well if you’re looking at some type of “polarizing” action as a mechanism for breaking the ice and providing some filtering for making new acquaintances and future good friends.
It says “I am socially clueless enough to do random inappropriate things”
In a sense I agree with you, if you are trying to signal something specific, then wearing a suit in an unusual context is probably the wrong way of doing it. But, the social signalling game is exhausting. (I am English, maybe this makes it worse than normal for me). If I am a guest at someone’s house and they offer me food, what am I signalling by saying yes? What if I say no? They didn’t let me buy the next round of drinks, do I try again later or take No for an answer? Are they offering me a lift because they actually don’t mind? How many levels deep do I need to go in trying to work this situation out?
I have known a few people over the years with odd dress preferences (one person really, really liked an Indiana Jones style hat). To me, the hat declared “I know the rules, and I hereby declare no intention of following them. Everyone else here thereby has permission to stop worrying about this tower of imagined formality and relax.” For me that was very nice, creating a more relaxed situation. They tore down the hall of mirrors, and made it easier for me to enjoy myself. I have seen people take other actions with that purpose, clothes are just one way.
Long way of saying, sometimes a good way of asking people to relax is by breaking a few unimportant rules. But, even aside from that, it seems like the OP isn’t trying to do this at all. They have actually just genuinely had enough with the hall of mirrors game and have declared themselves to no longer be playing. Its only socially clueless if you break the rules by mistake. If you know you are breaking them, but just don’t care, it is a different thing. The entire structure of the post makes it clear the OP knows they are breaking the rules.
As a political comparison, Donald Trump didn’t propose putting a “Rivera of the Middle East” in Gaza because he is politically clueless, he did so because he doesn’t care about being politically clued-in and he wants everyone to know it.
Yes, but that doesn’t mean that you can just avoid it and its consequences. Like war, you may not be interested in it, but it is interested in you. And if you can’t avoid sometimes messing up, you can at least avoid making it worse than it has to be (such as by gratuitously wearing inappropriate clothes).
They have actually just genuinely had enough with the hall of mirrors game and have declared themselves to no longer be playing.
Yes, but he’s acting like it’s a triumphant success. Voluntarily deciding “I don’t want social skills” is a surrender that seriously harms you. If you can’t get social skills perfect, at least do what you can. And he certainly can avoid wearing inappropriate suits, even if he might mess up deciding when to buy drinks.
As a political comparison, Donald Trump didn’t propose putting a “Rivera of the Middle East” in Gaza because he is politically clueless, he did so because he doesn’t care about being politically clued-in and he wants everyone to know it.
Genuinely communicating “I don’t care and I want you to know it” without communicating bad things at the same time is countersignalling. Not just anyone can countersignal. Trump can do this because he’s in a powerful position that implies a certain amount of cluefulness (and even then, his opponents are happy to jump on this sort of stuff as evidence of cluelessness).
Personal moderation decision: I’m cutting off the Trump discussion here. Any further comments will be removed, on the grounds that their political mindkillery effects trump their relevance to this discussion.
This policy applies only to this post and does not generalize to my other posts.
Voluntarily deciding “I don’t want social skills” is a surrender that seriously harms you.
citation needed. my own experience is the opposite of that. refusing to play the game let you take the role of the local nerd, and it’s not a bad role. and it’s much much better then trying to play the game and failing.
Spend your weirdness points wisely.
Wearing a suit in an inappropriate context is like wearing a fedora. It says “I am socially clueless enough to do random inappropriate things”. The fact that people will eventually stop asking you about the suit does not mean that you are no longer saying this message, nor does it mean that people will stop listening to it.
And if your reaction is “I’m just not conforming. I’m not harming anyone, why do they care?”, it’s sending a message. Messages don’t need to cause harm for people to react to them.
You have a limited ability to choose the message that your action sends. It may not be possible to wear the suit and avoid sending the message that you are socially clueless. You also have a limited ability to make people believe your message. You can send the message “I think the suit is no big deal”, but nobody is forced to agree that the suit is no big deal.
“In an inappropriate context” is ambiguous. It can mean “in a context where people don’t normally wear suits” or it can mean “in a place where people consider it actively wrong to wear a suit”.
There are of course places of the latter type, like it would be very weird to wear a suit in a gym or swimming pool. But I don’t think lsusr would advocate that.
If you just mean “in a context where people don’t normally wear suits”, then wearing a suit in such a context could signal social cluelessness, but it could also signal confidence and self-esteem.
This reasoning would justify violating any social convention whatsoever. “Refusing to say ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ signals confidence and self-esteem”.
Yes, it does, but signalling those things and signalling social cluelessness are entwined. “My self esteem is more important than these petty rules” can mean that you think you are really important compared to the rules, or that the rules are unimportant compared to you. You’re also overrating self-esteem. Signalling self-esteem is often a bad thing.
(Remember how fedoras became a sign of cluelessness? It’s not very different from out of context suits.)
Wrong. I distinguished between conventions that people have a reason to respond negatively to if you violate them (e.g. wearing a suit to the gym or swimming pool which is stupid since it will ruin both your exercise and your suit), and behaviors that just happen to be unusual but not intrinsically negative. Refusing to say ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ would fall squarely in the category that people would have a reason to feel negative about.
My understanding is that fedoras became a sign of cluelessness because they got associated with groups like pick-up artists, which is also an explicit reason to have a negative reaction to them.
It’s not like wearing a suit in a swimming pool. Never saying “thank you” doesn’t physically damage things. It just makes people upset because of the social inappropriateness, like the inappropriate suit.
This is far too broadly stated, the actual message people will take away from an unexpected suit is verrrrry context-dependent, depending on (among other things) who the suit-wearer is, who the people observing are, how the suit-wearer carries himself, the particular situation the suit is worn in, etc. etc. etc. Judging from the post it sounds like those things create an overall favorable impression for lsusr?(it’s hard to tell from just a post of course, but still)
Yeah, I started wearing a suit in specific contexts after many months of careful consideration. It’s not random at all. Everything about it is carefully considered, from the number of buttons on my jacket to the color of my shoes.
I mostly wear it around artists. Artists basically never wear suits where I live, but they really appreciate them because ① artists are particularly sensitive to aesthetic fundamentals and ② artists like creative clothing.
There’s a Korean expression that basicly seems to be “the look is right” or “the look fits” which seems in line with your comment. The same outfit, hat, shoes, glasses, jacket or even car for different people create a different image in other’s heads. There is a different message getting sent.
So if the overall point for the post is about the signaling then I suspect it is very important to consider the device one chooses to send messages like this. In other words, yes breaking some social/cultural standards to make certain points is fine but thought needs to be put into just how appropriately your chosen device/method “fits” you will probably have a fairly large impact on your success.
I suspect that holds just as well if you’re looking at some type of “polarizing” action as a mechanism for breaking the ice and providing some filtering for making new acquaintances and future good friends.
In a sense I agree with you, if you are trying to signal something specific, then wearing a suit in an unusual context is probably the wrong way of doing it. But, the social signalling game is exhausting. (I am English, maybe this makes it worse than normal for me). If I am a guest at someone’s house and they offer me food, what am I signalling by saying yes? What if I say no? They didn’t let me buy the next round of drinks, do I try again later or take No for an answer? Are they offering me a lift because they actually don’t mind? How many levels deep do I need to go in trying to work this situation out?
I have known a few people over the years with odd dress preferences (one person really, really liked an Indiana Jones style hat). To me, the hat declared “I know the rules, and I hereby declare no intention of following them. Everyone else here thereby has permission to stop worrying about this tower of imagined formality and relax.” For me that was very nice, creating a more relaxed situation. They tore down the hall of mirrors, and made it easier for me to enjoy myself. I have seen people take other actions with that purpose, clothes are just one way.
Long way of saying, sometimes a good way of asking people to relax is by breaking a few unimportant rules. But, even aside from that, it seems like the OP isn’t trying to do this at all. They have actually just genuinely had enough with the hall of mirrors game and have declared themselves to no longer be playing. Its only socially clueless if you break the rules by mistake. If you know you are breaking them, but just don’t care, it is a different thing. The entire structure of the post makes it clear the OP knows they are breaking the rules.
As a political comparison, Donald Trump didn’t propose putting a “Rivera of the Middle East” in Gaza because he is politically clueless, he did so because he doesn’t care about being politically clued-in and he wants everyone to know it.
Yes, but that doesn’t mean that you can just avoid it and its consequences. Like war, you may not be interested in it, but it is interested in you. And if you can’t avoid sometimes messing up, you can at least avoid making it worse than it has to be (such as by gratuitously wearing inappropriate clothes).
Yes, but he’s acting like it’s a triumphant success. Voluntarily deciding “I don’t want social skills” is a surrender that seriously harms you. If you can’t get social skills perfect, at least do what you can. And he certainly can avoid wearing inappropriate suits, even if he might mess up deciding when to buy drinks.
Genuinely communicating “I don’t care and I want you to know it” without communicating bad things at the same time is countersignalling. Not just anyone can countersignal. Trump can do this because he’s in a powerful position that implies a certain amount of cluefulness (and even then, his opponents are happy to jump on this sort of stuff as evidence of cluelessness).
I believe that Trump is, in fact, exactly that clueless and completely unaware of how clueless he is.
Edit: For the record: my biggest reason for believing this is having read reports of what many mainstream Republicans who worked under him during his first term have said and written about what he was like.
Personal moderation decision: I’m cutting off the Trump discussion here. Any further comments will be removed, on the grounds that their political mindkillery effects trump their relevance to this discussion.
This policy applies only to this post and does not generalize to my other posts.
Pun intended? ;)
But yeah, it’s getting off-topic and there’s plenty of other places to discuss that kind of thing.
I’m glad we’re on the same page. :)
Voluntarily deciding “I don’t want social skills” is a surrender that seriously harms you.
citation needed. my own experience is the opposite of that. refusing to play the game let you take the role of the local nerd, and it’s not a bad role. and it’s much much better then trying to play the game and failing.