In places like Hacker News and Stack Exchange, there are norms that you should be polite. If you said something impolite and Reddit-like such as “Psh, what a douchebag”, you’d get flagged and disciplined.
But that’s only one form of impoliteness. What about subtextual impoliteness? I think subtextual impoliteness is important too. Similarly important. And I don’t think my views here are unique.
I get why subtextual impoliteness isn’t policed though. Perhaps by definition, it’s often not totally clear what the subtext behind a statement is. So if you try to warn someone about subtextual impoliteness, they can always retreat to the position that you misinterpreted them (and were uncharitable).
One possible way around this would be to have multiple people vote on what the subtext is, but that sounds pretty messy. I expect it’d lead to a bunch of nasty arguments and animosity.
Another possible way around it is to… ask nicely? Like, “I’m not going to police you, but please be aware of the idea of subtext and try to keep your subtext polite.” I don’t see that working though. It’s an obvious enough thing that it doesn’t actually need saying. Plus I get the sense that many communities currently have stuff like this, and they are mostly ignored.
So are we just stuck with no good path forward? Meh, probably. I at least don’t see a good path forward.
At least in situations where you have no leverage. In situations like friendships and certain work relationships, if you find someone to be subtextually impolite, you can be less friendly towards them. I think that leverage is a large part of what pushes people to be subtextually polite in the first place (study on politeness in elevators vs cars).
Can you give a few examples (in-context on HN or Stack Exchange) of subtextual impoliteness that you wish were enforceable? It’s unfortunate but true that the culture/norm of many young-male-dominated technical forums can’t distinguish direct factual statements from aggressive framing.
I generally agree with “no good path forward” as an assessment: the bullies and insecure people who exist everywhere (even if not the majority) are very good at finding loopholes and deniable behaviors in any legible enforcement framework.
“Please be kind” works well in many places, or “you may be right, but that hurt my feelings”. But really, that requires high-trust to start with, and if it’s not already a norm, it’s very difficult to make it one.
Can you give a few examples (in-context on HN or Stack Exchange) of subtextual impoliteness that you wish were enforceable?
Here are a two: 1, 2. /r/poker is also littered with it. Example.
I’m failing to easily find examples on Stack Exchange but I definitely know I’ve come across a bunch. Some that I’ve flagged. I tried looking for a way to see a list of comments you’ve flagged, but I wasn’t able to figure it out.
Thanks—yeah, those seem mild enough that I doubt there’s any possible mechanism to eliminate the snarky/rude/annoying parts, at least in a group much larger than Dunbar’s number with no additional social filtering (like in-person requirements for at least some interactions, or non-anonymous invite/expulsion mechanisms).
Subtextual politeness
In places like Hacker News and Stack Exchange, there are norms that you should be polite. If you said something impolite and Reddit-like such as “Psh, what a douchebag”, you’d get flagged and disciplined.
But that’s only one form of impoliteness. What about subtextual impoliteness? I think subtextual impoliteness is important too. Similarly important. And I don’t think my views here are unique.
I get why subtextual impoliteness isn’t policed though. Perhaps by definition, it’s often not totally clear what the subtext behind a statement is. So if you try to warn someone about subtextual impoliteness, they can always retreat to the position that you misinterpreted them (and were uncharitable).
One possible way around this would be to have multiple people vote on what the subtext is, but that sounds pretty messy. I expect it’d lead to a bunch of nasty arguments and animosity.
Another possible way around it is to… ask nicely? Like, “I’m not going to police you, but please be aware of the idea of subtext and try to keep your subtext polite.” I don’t see that working though. It’s an obvious enough thing that it doesn’t actually need saying. Plus I get the sense that many communities currently have stuff like this, and they are mostly ignored.
So are we just stuck with no good path forward? Meh, probably. I at least don’t see a good path forward.
At least in situations where you have no leverage. In situations like friendships and certain work relationships, if you find someone to be subtextually impolite, you can be less friendly towards them. I think that leverage is a large part of what pushes people to be subtextually polite in the first place (study on politeness in elevators vs cars).
Can you give a few examples (in-context on HN or Stack Exchange) of subtextual impoliteness that you wish were enforceable? It’s unfortunate but true that the culture/norm of many young-male-dominated technical forums can’t distinguish direct factual statements from aggressive framing.
I generally agree with “no good path forward” as an assessment: the bullies and insecure people who exist everywhere (even if not the majority) are very good at finding loopholes and deniable behaviors in any legible enforcement framework.
“Please be kind” works well in many places, or “you may be right, but that hurt my feelings”. But really, that requires high-trust to start with, and if it’s not already a norm, it’s very difficult to make it one.
Here are a two: 1, 2. /r/poker is also littered with it. Example.
I’m failing to easily find examples on Stack Exchange but I definitely know I’ve come across a bunch. Some that I’ve flagged. I tried looking for a way to see a list of comments you’ve flagged, but I wasn’t able to figure it out.
Thanks—yeah, those seem mild enough that I doubt there’s any possible mechanism to eliminate the snarky/rude/annoying parts, at least in a group much larger than Dunbar’s number with no additional social filtering (like in-person requirements for at least some interactions, or non-anonymous invite/expulsion mechanisms).