“At the mean, our society (north-america in this case) informally still considers that when a woman complains ( / cries / seeks comfort / otherwise attempts to get over in some manner that involves other humans) about getting raped instead of “dealing with it / getting over it on her own”, she probably deserved it, or is a weakling, or some other strong negative affect.”
I have, literally, never heard this expressed (and I hang wit
h/read some rather traditional people).
″ Of course, admitting this view overtly is very low-status, and consequently acknowledging anything like this as “true” is politically-incorrect.”
Ah, ‘of course’, that’s why. They all (or the mean of them all) secretly think it but don’t want to say so.
Can I politely ask how you came to this conclusion? Not related ones, but this specifically.
Can I politely ask how you came to this conclusion? Not related ones, but this specifically.
Experimentally by making ideological statements under a social persona in the presence of two biased samples: random internet people, and high school students not part of my circle of friends.
Yes, I deliberately made disgusting statements like “Girls should shut up about rape, if they can’t do anything about it on their own they deserved it.” in the presence of strangers for the sake of science. Responses ranged from the traditional Internet-chat ”...” catchall to ”...Wow, you should go hang yourself” (in person, with stares of disgust and/or incredulity), along with a “HOLY FUCKING SHIT!” followed by immediate ban by an admin in one internet case.
I think it’s clear the above is evidence of the denotational claims. (specifically: Admitting this view is low status, claiming that people do believe this view is politically incorrect)
As for whether people are “secretly” thinking this while disclaiming the above, well… court cases, public media, gossip about public media about court cases, and lots of general gossip or offhand comments. While the first dataset included mostly males, this second dataset includes mostly adult women.
Also, please do make sure you’ve noticed (I think you did, but your observations / response if I assume that you did are unexpected to me) that I’m mainly talking about “some strong negative affect” (of any kind, in general), not necessarily the specific “She deserved it!”. The most common statements I hear to this effect go along the lines of “Okay, she should shut up about this, stop bugging people, and move on, she’s just worsening her case”.
In general, most less-rational people looking at it in Far mode seem to believe by default that the best strategy after being raped is to send a post-it note to the local police in the magical wishthinking that they’ll catch the rapist silently without media attention, and then the woman should shut up and not do anything else beyond that. One could explore in the direction “The less we hear about it, the less it exists”, but that’s a whole different beast with different rules.
To be clear, it was only the first part I doubted (that most people believe that women psychologically harmed by rape deserved it or is a weakling), not the second (that people recognize that sentiment as socially disapproved).
That people don’t want to themselves discuss it with a particular victim, or think the woman would be better off not dwelling on it (which is a different model of psychological healing, not of the justifiability of the rape, imo), or that rape is over publicized in relationship to other problems, are different sentiments than your 7:35 comment seems to be arguing for, both more credible that people believe it, and less offenisive on the face of it if they do.
“Also, please do make sure you’ve noticed (I think you did, but your observations / response if I assume that you did are unexpected to me) that I’m mainly talking about “some strong negative affect” (of any kind, in general), not necessarily the specific “She deserved it!”. ”
Hyperbole, then? I don’t see how one would notice what you were mainly talking about, when “she deserved it” was the first judgement described.
Hyperbole, then? I don’t see how one would notice what you were mainly talking about, when “she deserved it” was the first judgement described.
Really? Is that the message I’m sending? Wow.
(in case of doubt: Not sarcastic)
I usually read enumeration statements of the form ‘A or B or some other C’, where C includes A and B, as “Here are two examples of C things to avoid confusion, and it’s one of the C things”. If I’m either not interpreting this right at all or I wasn’t actually communicating this for some reason, I really want to know.
Well,
“[Average Americans think that if a woman complains of a rape in some form, then] she probably deserved it, or is a weakling, or some other strong negative affect.”″
I read that as that people make a negative judgement, of which be deserving or being a weakling is among them not uncommonly and is typical of the category in general.
If you wanted to demonstrate that the “deserved it” judgement was an outlier, I would expect some modifier or formulation like “[they consider...] that she’s overplaying it, or some other negative effect, even seemingly that she deserved it somehow.”
“At the mean, our society (north-america in this case) informally still considers that when a woman complains ( / cries / seeks comfort / otherwise attempts to get over in some manner that involves other humans) about getting raped instead of “dealing with it / getting over it on her own”, she probably deserved it, or is a weakling, or some other strong negative affect.” I have, literally, never heard this expressed (and I hang wit h/read some rather traditional people).
″ Of course, admitting this view overtly is very low-status, and consequently acknowledging anything like this as “true” is politically-incorrect.”
Ah, ‘of course’, that’s why. They all (or the mean of them all) secretly think it but don’t want to say so. Can I politely ask how you came to this conclusion? Not related ones, but this specifically.
Experimentally by making ideological statements under a social persona in the presence of two biased samples: random internet people, and high school students not part of my circle of friends.
Yes, I deliberately made disgusting statements like “Girls should shut up about rape, if they can’t do anything about it on their own they deserved it.” in the presence of strangers for the sake of science. Responses ranged from the traditional Internet-chat ”...” catchall to ”...Wow, you should go hang yourself” (in person, with stares of disgust and/or incredulity), along with a “HOLY FUCKING SHIT!” followed by immediate ban by an admin in one internet case.
I think it’s clear the above is evidence of the denotational claims. (specifically: Admitting this view is low status, claiming that people do believe this view is politically incorrect)
As for whether people are “secretly” thinking this while disclaiming the above, well… court cases, public media, gossip about public media about court cases, and lots of general gossip or offhand comments. While the first dataset included mostly males, this second dataset includes mostly adult women.
Also, please do make sure you’ve noticed (I think you did, but your observations / response if I assume that you did are unexpected to me) that I’m mainly talking about “some strong negative affect” (of any kind, in general), not necessarily the specific “She deserved it!”. The most common statements I hear to this effect go along the lines of “Okay, she should shut up about this, stop bugging people, and move on, she’s just worsening her case”.
In general, most less-rational people looking at it in Far mode seem to believe by default that the best strategy after being raped is to send a post-it note to the local police in the magical wishthinking that they’ll catch the rapist silently without media attention, and then the woman should shut up and not do anything else beyond that. One could explore in the direction “The less we hear about it, the less it exists”, but that’s a whole different beast with different rules.
To be clear, it was only the first part I doubted (that most people believe that women psychologically harmed by rape deserved it or is a weakling), not the second (that people recognize that sentiment as socially disapproved).
That people don’t want to themselves discuss it with a particular victim, or think the woman would be better off not dwelling on it (which is a different model of psychological healing, not of the justifiability of the rape, imo), or that rape is over publicized in relationship to other problems, are different sentiments than your 7:35 comment seems to be arguing for, both more credible that people believe it, and less offenisive on the face of it if they do.
“Also, please do make sure you’ve noticed (I think you did, but your observations / response if I assume that you did are unexpected to me) that I’m mainly talking about “some strong negative affect” (of any kind, in general), not necessarily the specific “She deserved it!”. ”
Hyperbole, then? I don’t see how one would notice what you were mainly talking about, when “she deserved it” was the first judgement described.
Really? Is that the message I’m sending? Wow.
(in case of doubt: Not sarcastic)
I usually read enumeration statements of the form ‘A or B or some other C’, where C includes A and B, as “Here are two examples of C things to avoid confusion, and it’s one of the C things”. If I’m either not interpreting this right at all or I wasn’t actually communicating this for some reason, I really want to know.
Well, “[Average Americans think that if a woman complains of a rape in some form, then] she probably deserved it, or is a weakling, or some other strong negative affect.”″
I read that as that people make a negative judgement, of which be deserving or being a weakling is among them not uncommonly and is typical of the category in general.
If you wanted to demonstrate that the “deserved it” judgement was an outlier, I would expect some modifier or formulation like “[they consider...] that she’s overplaying it, or some other negative effect, even seemingly that she deserved it somehow.”
Unless you were trying to invoke this trope:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArsonMurderAndJaywalking