Of 4: Is there a definition of what counts as ethics? I suppose being universal is part of the definition and then it is defined out. Fine. But the problem is, if Alice or Bob comes and says “Since I am only interested in this sort of thing by definition I am unethical”, this is also not accurate, because it does not really predict what they are. They are not necessarily Randian egotists, they may be the super good people who are very reliable friends and volunteer at local soup kitchens and invest into activism to make their city better and so on, they just change the subject if someone talks about the starvation in Haiti. That is not what “unethical” predicts.
Most people would say that volunteering at a soup kitchen is good, but many would change their mind if they heard that some advantage was being expected in return. And if it isnt, in what way is it reciprocal?
Either I really need to write clearer or you need to read with more attention. Above, “I am not even considering the chance of a direct payback, simply the utility of having people I like and associate with not suffer is a utility to me, obviously.” Making your city better by making sure all of its members are fed is something that makes you better off. It is not a payback or special advantage, but still a return. It makes the place on the whole more functional and safer and having a better vibe. Of course it is not an investment with positive returns, this is why it is still ethics, there is always some sacrifice made. It is always negative return, just not 0 return like “true” altruism. Rather it is like this:
If you have a million utils and invest it into Earth, you get 1 back by making Earth better for you. If you invest it into your country, you get 10 back by making your country better for you. Invest it into your city, you get 1000 back, by making your city better for you. Invest it into your cousin, 10K by making your relatives better for you, your bro, 100K by making your family better for you and so on.
But what would that be objectivily the right way to behave? It seems as if ityou are saying people distant from you are objectively worth less. I think you would need to sell this theory as a compromise between what is right anfpd what is motivating.
Sorry, cannot parse it. My behavior with others does not reflect their objective worth (what is that?) but my goals. Part of my goals may be being virtuous or good, which is called ethics. Or it can be raising the utility of certain people or even all people, but that is also a goal. My behavior with diamonds does not reflect the objective worth of diamonds (do they have any?) but my goals wrt to diamonds. Motivating: yes, that is close to the idea of goals. That is a good approach.
How about this: if you want to work from the angle of objective worth, well, you too do not worth objectively less than others. So basically you want your altruism to be a kind of reciprocal contract: “I have and you not, so I give you, but if it is ever so in the future that you have and I not you should give me too, because I do not worth less than you.”
If that sounds okay, then the next stage could be working from the idea that this is not a clearly formulated, signed contract, but more of a tacit agreement of mutual cooperation if and when the need arises, and then you get you have more of such a tacit agreement with people closer to you.
The Nazi’s and Ayn Rands Egoism were in the last 300 years, so no.
That said, it is now harder to ignore people in far off lands, and easier to help them.
Utilitarianism is popular on LW because, AFAICT, its mathy.
You haven’t explained why you reciprocal ethics should count as ethics at all.
Of 4: Is there a definition of what counts as ethics? I suppose being universal is part of the definition and then it is defined out. Fine. But the problem is, if Alice or Bob comes and says “Since I am only interested in this sort of thing by definition I am unethical”, this is also not accurate, because it does not really predict what they are. They are not necessarily Randian egotists, they may be the super good people who are very reliable friends and volunteer at local soup kitchens and invest into activism to make their city better and so on, they just change the subject if someone talks about the starvation in Haiti. That is not what “unethical” predicts.
I’m talking about reciprocal ethics.
Most people would say that volunteering at a soup kitchen is good, but many would change their mind if they heard that some advantage was being expected in return. And if it isnt, in what way is it reciprocal?
Either I really need to write clearer or you need to read with more attention. Above, “I am not even considering the chance of a direct payback, simply the utility of having people I like and associate with not suffer is a utility to me, obviously.” Making your city better by making sure all of its members are fed is something that makes you better off. It is not a payback or special advantage, but still a return. It makes the place on the whole more functional and safer and having a better vibe. Of course it is not an investment with positive returns, this is why it is still ethics, there is always some sacrifice made. It is always negative return, just not 0 return like “true” altruism. Rather it is like this:
If you have a million utils and invest it into Earth, you get 1 back by making Earth better for you. If you invest it into your country, you get 10 back by making your country better for you. Invest it into your city, you get 1000 back, by making your city better for you. Invest it into your cousin, 10K by making your relatives better for you, your bro, 100K by making your family better for you and so on.
But what would that be objectivily the right way to behave? It seems as if ityou are saying people distant from you are objectively worth less. I think you would need to sell this theory as a compromise between what is right anfpd what is motivating.
Sorry, cannot parse it. My behavior with others does not reflect their objective worth (what is that?) but my goals. Part of my goals may be being virtuous or good, which is called ethics. Or it can be raising the utility of certain people or even all people, but that is also a goal. My behavior with diamonds does not reflect the objective worth of diamonds (do they have any?) but my goals wrt to diamonds. Motivating: yes, that is close to the idea of goals. That is a good approach.
How about this: if you want to work from the angle of objective worth, well, you too do not worth objectively less than others. So basically you want your altruism to be a kind of reciprocal contract: “I have and you not, so I give you, but if it is ever so in the future that you have and I not you should give me too, because I do not worth less than you.”
If that sounds okay, then the next stage could be working from the idea that this is not a clearly formulated, signed contract, but more of a tacit agreement of mutual cooperation if and when the need arises, and then you get you have more of such a tacit agreement with people closer to you.