I’m not sure about this, and I don’t think you were trying to say this, but, I doubt that the two categories you gave usefully cover the space, even at this level of abstraction. Someone could be “well-meaning” in the sense of all their explicit, and even all their conscious, motives being compassionate, life-oriented, etc., while still systematically agentically cybernetically motivatedly causing and amplifying harm. I think you were getting at this in the sub-bullet-point, but the sort of person I’m describing would both meet the description “well-meaning; unintentional harm” and also this from your second bullet-point:
They created a system that was designed to exploit people systematically, and they lack care in their body or soul for the beings they hurt. They internally applaud when they come up with clever systems that avoid accountability or responsibility while gaining personal benefit. They hope they can keep this up forever. They have a deep-seated fear of failure, and they will do whatever it takes to avoid failure.
Maybe I’m just saying, I don’t know what you (or I, or anyone) mean by “well-meaning”: I don’t know what it is to be well-meaning, and I don’t know how we would know, and I don’t know what predictions to make if someone is well-meaning or not. (I’m not saying it’s not a thing, it’s very clearly a thing; it’s just that I want to develop our concepts more, because at least my concepts are pushed past the breaking point in abusive situations.) For example, someone might both (1) have never once consciously explicitly worked out any strategy or design to make it easier to harm people, and (2) across contexts, take actions that reliably develop/assemble a social field where people are being systematically harmed, and not update on information about how to not do that.
Maybe it would help to distinguish “categories of essence” from “categories of treatment”. Like, if someone is so drowning in their shadow that they reliably, proactively, systematically harm people, then a category of essence question is like, “in principle is there information that could update them to stop doing this”, and a category of treatement is like, “regardless of what they really are, we are going to treat them exactly like we’d treat a conscious, malevolent, deliberate exploiter”.
I appreciate the added discernment here. This is definitely the kind of conversation I’d like to be having. !
someone might both (1) have never once consciously explicitly worked out any strategy or design to make it easier to harm people, and (2) across contexts, take actions that reliably develop/assemble a social field where people are being systematically harmed, and not update on information about how to not do that.
Agree. I was including that in ‘shadow stuff’.
The main difference between well-meaning and not, I think for me, is that the well-meaning person is willing to start engaging in conversations or experimenting with new systems in order to help the problems be less. Even though it’s in their shadow and they cannot see it and it might take a lot to convince them, after some time period (which could be years!), they are game enough to start making changes, trying to see it, etc.
I believe Anna S is an example of such a well-meaning person, but also I think it took her a pretty long time to come to grips with the patterns? I think she’s still in the process of discerning it? But this seems normal. Normal human level thing. Not sociopathic Epstein thing.
More controversially perhaps, I think Brent Dill has the potential to see and eat his shadow (cuz I think he actually cares about people and I’ve seen his compassion), but as you put it, he is “so drowning in his shadow that he reliably, systematically harms people.” And I actually think it’s the compassionate thing to do to prevent him from harming more people.
So where does Geoff fall here? I am still in that inquiry.
I’m not sure about this, and I don’t think you were trying to say this, but, I doubt that the two categories you gave usefully cover the space, even at this level of abstraction. Someone could be “well-meaning” in the sense of all their explicit, and even all their conscious, motives being compassionate, life-oriented, etc., while still systematically agentically cybernetically motivatedly causing and amplifying harm. I think you were getting at this in the sub-bullet-point, but the sort of person I’m describing would both meet the description “well-meaning; unintentional harm” and also this from your second bullet-point:
Maybe I’m just saying, I don’t know what you (or I, or anyone) mean by “well-meaning”: I don’t know what it is to be well-meaning, and I don’t know how we would know, and I don’t know what predictions to make if someone is well-meaning or not. (I’m not saying it’s not a thing, it’s very clearly a thing; it’s just that I want to develop our concepts more, because at least my concepts are pushed past the breaking point in abusive situations.) For example, someone might both (1) have never once consciously explicitly worked out any strategy or design to make it easier to harm people, and (2) across contexts, take actions that reliably develop/assemble a social field where people are being systematically harmed, and not update on information about how to not do that.
Maybe it would help to distinguish “categories of essence” from “categories of treatment”. Like, if someone is so drowning in their shadow that they reliably, proactively, systematically harm people, then a category of essence question is like, “in principle is there information that could update them to stop doing this”, and a category of treatement is like, “regardless of what they really are, we are going to treat them exactly like we’d treat a conscious, malevolent, deliberate exploiter”.
I appreciate the added discernment here. This is definitely the kind of conversation I’d like to be having. !
Agree. I was including that in ‘shadow stuff’.
The main difference between well-meaning and not, I think for me, is that the well-meaning person is willing to start engaging in conversations or experimenting with new systems in order to help the problems be less. Even though it’s in their shadow and they cannot see it and it might take a lot to convince them, after some time period (which could be years!), they are game enough to start making changes, trying to see it, etc.
I believe Anna S is an example of such a well-meaning person, but also I think it took her a pretty long time to come to grips with the patterns? I think she’s still in the process of discerning it? But this seems normal. Normal human level thing. Not sociopathic Epstein thing.
More controversially perhaps, I think Brent Dill has the potential to see and eat his shadow (cuz I think he actually cares about people and I’ve seen his compassion), but as you put it, he is “so drowning in his shadow that he reliably, systematically harms people.” And I actually think it’s the compassionate thing to do to prevent him from harming more people.
So where does Geoff fall here? I am still in that inquiry.