This made me think of an omission that’s probably not a very big deal, but preHogwarts Rationalist Harry never reports having used magic before. At the same time, he believes in magic. So maybe he did some magic or saw some magic and was Obliviated?
Also, since Harry’s magic bag responds to sign language, can all spells be cast that way even by people who’re bad at nonverbal magic?
I don’t think he really believes in magic… he just points out that belief is not necessary since it can be tested:
“Then you don’t have to fight over this,” Harry said firmly. Hoping against hope that this time, just this once, they would listen to him. “If it’s true, we can just get a Hogwarts professor here and see the magic for ourselves, and Dad will admit that it’s true. And if not, then Mum will admit that it’s false. That’s what the experimental method is for, so that we don’t have to resolve things just by arguing.”
Although he also thinks
Except that some part of Harry was utterly convinced that magic was real, and had been since the instant he saw the putative letter from the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry.
In canon, it’s suggested that accidental magic is self-defense. Harry apparently has a perfectly happy & safe childhood spent reading, so no need for underage magic to ever manifest and no events to cause his dark side like an abused child. So what explains all this?
Well, we know one thing that explains both the certainty and dark side, and does not require any unhappiness or accidental magic in his childhood: influence from a Voldemort horcrux.
Well, we know one thing that explains both the certainty and dark side, and does not require any unhappiness or accidental magic in his childhood: influence from a Voldemort horcrux.
You know, if it weren’t for everyone else taking it so seriously, I would have (and did, before I started following discussions) dismissed Harry’s so called dark side as a perfectly normal personality quirk which he makes a big deal of because once he’s told he’s a prophesied hero he feels he ought to have something dramatically appropriate like a mysterious dark side.
In his place, I wouldn’t be thinking “My mysterious dark side is good at X,” I’d be thinking “I’m good at X when I put myself into the right frame of mind.”
Well, actually, in his place, I might be thinking “my mysterious dark side is good at X,” but that’s because if I were in his place, I’d be eleven.
In his place, I wouldn’t be thinking “My mysterious dark side is good at X,” I’d be thinking “I’m good at X when I put myself into the right frame of mind.”
Sometimes I’m all simplistic and think to myself “I’m good at X when I get pissed off.” Combined with a little emotional regulation with respect to pissed-off levels it amounts to much the same thing.
Especially if the ‘frame of mind’ has lots of other stuff going on as well: the implication is that he can’t get the competence without the rest of the baggage. So it’s like ‘slightly drunk me is good at pool (but it also wants to drink more and thus become very bad at pool), rather than ‘thoughtful me is good at understanding where other people are coming from’.
Okay, that makes sense. But I disagree that the dark side is part of Voldemort’s soul.
The dark side is the one that wants to protect his friends, and calling it dark isn’t really fair. Voldemort is pretty selfish so this doesn’t seem like it applies to him. It’s also been stressed in MOR that Harry’s dark side isn’t giving him access to any of Voldemort’s powers. I think it’s just a part of his psychology and lonely genius personality and that “the normal explanation is worth considering”, even in the wizarding world.
I just thought of something, and I’m not sure what the connection is to this but I feel like there is an underlying connection. Is EY emphasizing Snape’s history for a pragmatic plot type reason? Maybe there’s a secret reveal coming up, about Lily or something? This is purely intuitive so it’s probably crap. But sometimes my intuition is smarter than my active thoughts.
It also allows him to master the preparatory Occlumency exercises with extreme speed and ease. Which makes sense since the heart of Occlumency is assuming whatever personality you want at a given time, a gift Voldemort claims to have in abundance.
I just thought of something, and I’m not sure what the connection is to this but I feel like there is an underlying connection. Is EY emphasizing Snape’s history for a pragmatic plot type reason? Maybe there’s a secret reveal coming up, about Lily or something? This is purely intuitive so it’s probably crap. But sometimes my intuition is smarter than my active thoughts.
My guess is that he’s filling in Snape’s character background to give him the full complexity he deserves as one of the major players. Although Dumbledore doesn’t seem to think twice about him, Harry treats him as an obstacle, and Quirrell dismisses him as an opponent, it’s been made clear that Snape is running his own multi-stage plans (such as his manipulation of Hermione), which interact and interfere with everyone else’s. Perhaps his role is due to expand.
Harry is totally schizophrenic in MOR though. He’s got all of the Founders in his head.
You seem to be working from a unified view of the mind in which there is one single personality with one single voice, and deviations from this structure are pathological. I don’t think this is accurate.
Even if it was, it is common for people to hold internal dialogues, and not unusual for patterns to develop where certain kinds of thought are given certain labels. I don’t think this says anything special about Harry, except that he has a rich and vibrant inner life.
Also, a Public Service Announcement: “schizophrenia” is an umbrella term for a long list of possible symptoms whose main common feature is disconnection from reality or warped perception of it. You are thinking of Dissociative Identity Disorder (commonly known as Multiple Personality Disorder), which is a completely different thing altogether.
The dark side isn’t even a personality, as such, which implies strongly that it’s not a soul.
I was originally going to put a quote here, but it turned out to be pretty much half the chapter, so… Chapter 56. In particular, when you read
a blind terrified thing that only wanted to find a dark corner and hide and not have to think about it any more - [...]
Visualizing himself cradling his dark side like a frightened child in his arms.
Think back to Deathly Hallows, Chapter 36: King’s Cross, specifically the bit
He was the only person there, except for -
He recoiled. He had spotted the thing that was making the noises. It had the form of a small, naked child, curled on the ground, its skin raw and rough, flayed-looking, and it lay shuddering under a seat where it had been left, unwanted, stuffed out of sight, struggling for breath.
He was afraid of it. Small and fragile and wounded though it was, he did not want to approach it. Nevertheless he drew slowly nearer, ready to jump back at any moment. Soon he stood near enough to touch it, yet he could not bring himself to do it. He felt like a coward. He ought to comfort it, but it repulsed him.
No. Parseltongue has nothing to do with the dark side, and neither does the possible piece of Voldemort’s soul inside Harry. You’re confusing two different things. I’m not trying to argue that he isn’t a Horcrux, I’m trying to argue that the dark side is an authentic part of Harry and was not a result of the Horcrux.
Harry has some Voldemort powers. None of those are from the dark side of Harry, though. Nothing about Harry’s dark side is Voldemorty except that Harry arbitrarily labeled it dark.
I think the difference there is that Hufflepuff is a voice representing some of Harry’s thoughts and attitudes, running in parallel with the voice that Harry thinks of as himself. His dark side is a different state of consciousness—while it’s “on”, Harry processes emotions differently to normal, as well as thoughts, and the difference is big enough for him to perceive a separation between the dark side and his usual self.
Anecdotal evidence: I have a mental separation in my own inner life between “modules”, things like Harry’s house avatars that interject thoughts into my ongoing thought process, and “other personalities,” only one of which can be running at once. So the structure isn’t totally unrealistic.
since Harry’s magic bag responds to sign language, can all spells be cast that way [...] ?
I very much doubt it. You have to say “prior incantato” or whatever it is, not “previous spell”, and “expecto patronum” rather than “I’m waiting for my protector”, etc., and (at least in MoR) the exact durations of the vowel sounds in “oogely boogely” are essential for conjuring glowing bats. It seems very much as if magic is keyed to particular sounds and (pseudo-)languages. There might be sign-language spells, which might make for an interesting underexploited niche for an ambitious magical researcher, but I don’t see any reason to expect any sign-language translations of spells to exist.
and (at least in MoR) the exact durations of the vowel sounds in “oogely boogely” are essential for conjuring glowing bats
In canon you have to pronounce it Wing-gar-dium Levi-o-sa and can’t cast it unless you make the ‘gar’ nice and long. (In the movies, it’s “Levi-o-sa, not levio-sah”).
This made me think of an omission that’s probably not a very big deal, but preHogwarts Rationalist Harry never reports having used magic before. At the same time, he believes in magic. So maybe he did some magic or saw some magic and was Obliviated?
Also, since Harry’s magic bag responds to sign language, can all spells be cast that way even by people who’re bad at nonverbal magic?
I don’t think he really believes in magic… he just points out that belief is not necessary since it can be tested:
Although he also thinks
In canon, it’s suggested that accidental magic is self-defense. Harry apparently has a perfectly happy & safe childhood spent reading, so no need for underage magic to ever manifest and no events to cause his dark side like an abused child. So what explains all this?
Well, we know one thing that explains both the certainty and dark side, and does not require any unhappiness or accidental magic in his childhood: influence from a Voldemort horcrux.
You know, if it weren’t for everyone else taking it so seriously, I would have (and did, before I started following discussions) dismissed Harry’s so called dark side as a perfectly normal personality quirk which he makes a big deal of because once he’s told he’s a prophesied hero he feels he ought to have something dramatically appropriate like a mysterious dark side.
In his place, I wouldn’t be thinking “My mysterious dark side is good at X,” I’d be thinking “I’m good at X when I put myself into the right frame of mind.”
Well, actually, in his place, I might be thinking “my mysterious dark side is good at X,” but that’s because if I were in his place, I’d be eleven.
Sometimes I’m all simplistic and think to myself “I’m good at X when I get pissed off.” Combined with a little emotional regulation with respect to pissed-off levels it amounts to much the same thing.
Especially if the ‘frame of mind’ has lots of other stuff going on as well: the implication is that he can’t get the competence without the rest of the baggage. So it’s like ‘slightly drunk me is good at pool (but it also wants to drink more and thus become very bad at pool), rather than ‘thoughtful me is good at understanding where other people are coming from’.
Okay, that makes sense. But I disagree that the dark side is part of Voldemort’s soul.
The dark side is the one that wants to protect his friends, and calling it dark isn’t really fair. Voldemort is pretty selfish so this doesn’t seem like it applies to him. It’s also been stressed in MOR that Harry’s dark side isn’t giving him access to any of Voldemort’s powers. I think it’s just a part of his psychology and lonely genius personality and that “the normal explanation is worth considering”, even in the wizarding world.
I just thought of something, and I’m not sure what the connection is to this but I feel like there is an underlying connection. Is EY emphasizing Snape’s history for a pragmatic plot type reason? Maybe there’s a secret reveal coming up, about Lily or something? This is purely intuitive so it’s probably crap. But sometimes my intuition is smarter than my active thoughts.
I would have thought Parseltongue was an obvious example.
It also allows him to master the preparatory Occlumency exercises with extreme speed and ease. Which makes sense since the heart of Occlumency is assuming whatever personality you want at a given time, a gift Voldemort claims to have in abundance.
My guess is that he’s filling in Snape’s character background to give him the full complexity he deserves as one of the major players. Although Dumbledore doesn’t seem to think twice about him, Harry treats him as an obstacle, and Quirrell dismisses him as an opponent, it’s been made clear that Snape is running his own multi-stage plans (such as his manipulation of Hermione), which interact and interfere with everyone else’s. Perhaps his role is due to expand.
Harry is totally schizophrenic in MOR though. He’s got all of the Founders in his head.
The dark side isn’t even a personality, as such, which implies strongly that it’s not a soul.
I think your interpretation of the Snape thing is probably accurate.
You seem to be working from a unified view of the mind in which there is one single personality with one single voice, and deviations from this structure are pathological. I don’t think this is accurate.
Even if it was, it is common for people to hold internal dialogues, and not unusual for patterns to develop where certain kinds of thought are given certain labels. I don’t think this says anything special about Harry, except that he has a rich and vibrant inner life.
Also, a Public Service Announcement: “schizophrenia” is an umbrella term for a long list of possible symptoms whose main common feature is disconnection from reality or warped perception of it. You are thinking of Dissociative Identity Disorder (commonly known as Multiple Personality Disorder), which is a completely different thing altogether.
I was originally going to put a quote here, but it turned out to be pretty much half the chapter, so… Chapter 56. In particular, when you read
Think back to Deathly Hallows, Chapter 36: King’s Cross, specifically the bit
No. Parseltongue has nothing to do with the dark side, and neither does the possible piece of Voldemort’s soul inside Harry. You’re confusing two different things. I’m not trying to argue that he isn’t a Horcrux, I’m trying to argue that the dark side is an authentic part of Harry and was not a result of the Horcrux.
Harry has some Voldemort powers. None of those are from the dark side of Harry, though. Nothing about Harry’s dark side is Voldemorty except that Harry arbitrarily labeled it dark.
The dark side is ridiculously afraid of death, which we know to be a Voldemort trait. It’s also very much separate from Harry.
I see fear of death as more of a universally human thing. I think that makes more sense than saying Voldemort’s soul is inherently more fearful.
I think people are attributing things to the dark side that don’t really belong there.
Why do you think the dark side is any more separate from Harry than Hufflepuff?
Harry says it is, in Azkaban.
I think the difference there is that Hufflepuff is a voice representing some of Harry’s thoughts and attitudes, running in parallel with the voice that Harry thinks of as himself. His dark side is a different state of consciousness—while it’s “on”, Harry processes emotions differently to normal, as well as thoughts, and the difference is big enough for him to perceive a separation between the dark side and his usual self.
Anecdotal evidence: I have a mental separation in my own inner life between “modules”, things like Harry’s house avatars that interject thoughts into my ongoing thought process, and “other personalities,” only one of which can be running at once. So the structure isn’t totally unrealistic.
In fairness, MoR!Voldemort has yet to demonstrate this trait. If anything, he acts as if he is tired of living.
Well, Quirrell thinks that the Dementor at Hogwarts tells him that he’ll hunt him down....
When you think about it, it makes sense that Horcruxing yourself would piss off Deathmentors something fierce.
I very much doubt it. You have to say “prior incantato” or whatever it is, not “previous spell”, and “expecto patronum” rather than “I’m waiting for my protector”, etc., and (at least in MoR) the exact durations of the vowel sounds in “oogely boogely” are essential for conjuring glowing bats. It seems very much as if magic is keyed to particular sounds and (pseudo-)languages. There might be sign-language spells, which might make for an interesting underexploited niche for an ambitious magical researcher, but I don’t see any reason to expect any sign-language translations of spells to exist.
In canon you have to pronounce it Wing-gar-dium Levi-o-sa and can’t cast it unless you make the ‘gar’ nice and long. (In the movies, it’s “Levi-o-sa, not levio-sah”).