My own story is a little different, but maybe not too different.
I wrote some of it a while ago in this post. I don’t know if I totally endorse the way I framed it there, so let me try again.
For basically as long as I can remember, my moment-to-moment experience of the world sucked. But of course when your every experience feels net negative, you adapt and learn to live with it. But I also have the kind of mind that likes to understand things and won’t rest if it doesn’t understand the mechanism by which something works, so I regularly turned this to myself. I was constantly dissatisfied with everything, and just when I’d think I’d nailed down why, it would turn out I had missed something huge and had to start over again.
Eventually this led to some moments of insight when I realized just how trapped by my own ontology I had become, and then found a way threw to a new way of seeing the world. These happened almost instantly, like a dam breaking and releasing all the realizations that had been held back.
This led me to positive psychology, because I noticed that sometimes I could make my life better, and eventually led me to realize that religions weren’t totally full of bunk, despite having been a life-long atheist. I’m not saying they’re right about the supernatural—as best I can tell, those claims are just false if interpreted straightforwardly—but I am saying I discovered that one of the things religions try to do is tell you how to live a happy life, and some do a better job of teaching you to do this than others.
To skip ahead, that’s what led me to Buddhism, Zen, and eventually practicing enough that I my moment-to-moment experience flipped. Now everything is always deeply okay, even if in a relative sense it’s not okay and needs to change, and it was thanks to taking all my skills as a rationalist and then using them with teachings from religion to find my way through.
Thanks a lot for sharing your experience! I would be very curious for you to further elaborate on this part:
Eventually this led to some moments of insight when I realized just how trapped by my own ontology I had become, and then found a way threw to a new way of seeing the world. These happened almost instantly, like a dam breaking and releasing all the realizations that had been held back.
Sure. This happened several times to me, each of which I interpret as a transition from one developmental level to the next, e.g. Kegan 3 → 4 → 5 → Cook-Greuter 5⁄6 → 6. Might help to talk about just one of these transitions.
In the Summer of 2015 I was thinking a lot about philosophy and trying to make sense of the world and kept noticing that, no matter what I did, I’d always run into some kind of hidden assumption that acted as a free variable in my thinking that was not constrained by anything and thus couldn’t be justified. I had been going in circles around this for a couple years at this point. I was also, coincidentally, trying to figure out how to manage the work of a growing engineering team and struggling because, to me, other people looked like black boxes that I only kind of understood.
In the midst of this I read The e-Myth on the recommendation of a coworker, and in the middle of it there was this line about how effective managers are neither always high or low status, but change how they act based on the situation, and combined with a lot of other reading I was doing this caused a lot of things to click into place.
The phenomenology of it was the same as every time I’ve had one of these big insights. It felt like my mind stopped for several seconds while I hung out in an empty state, and then I came back online with a deeper understanding of the world. In this case, it was something like “I can believe anything I want” in the sense that there really was some unjustified assumptions being made in my thinking, this was unavoidable, and it was okay because there was no other choice. All I could do was pick the assumptions to be the ones that would be most likely to make me have a good map of the world.
It then took a couple years to really integrate this insight, and it wasn’t until 2017 that I really started to grapple with the problems of the next one I would have.
In the midst of this I read The e-Myth on the recommendation of a coworker, and in the middle of it there was this line about how effective managers are neither always high or low status, but change how they act based on the situation, and combined with a lot of other reading I was doing this caused a lot of things to click into place.
I’m interested in the object level of “what are some nuts and bolts of how the high/low status manager thing worked, and how it applied”, and maybe a bit more meta-but-still-object-ish level of how that insight integrated with the rest of your worldview. (or, if that second part seems wrongly phrased… idk substitute the better question you think I should have asked? lol)
Sure. I’ll do my best to give some more details. This is all from memory, and it’s been a while, so I may end up giving ahistorical answers that mix up the timeline. Appologies in advance for any confusion this causes. If you have more questions or I’m not really getting at what you want to know, please follow up and I’ll try again.
First, let me give a little extra context on the status thing. I had also not long before read Impro, which has a big section on status games, and that definitely informed how The e-Myth hit me.
So, there’s this way in which managers play high and low. When managers play high they project high confidence. Sometimes this is needed, like when you need to motivate an employee to work on something. Sometimes it’s counterproductive, like when you need to learn from an employee. Playing too high status can make it hard for you to listen and for the person you need to listen to to feel like you are listening to them and thus encourage them to tell you what you need to know. Think of the know-it-all manager who can do your job better than you, or the aloof manager uninterested in the details.
Playing low status is often a problem for managers, and not being able to play high is one thing that keeps some people out of management. No one wants to follow a low status leader. A manager doesn’t necessarily need to be high status in the wider world, but they at least need to be able to claim higher status than their employees if those employees are going to want to do what they say.
The trouble is, sometimes managers need to play high playing low, like when a manager listens to their employee to understand the problems they are facing in their work, and actually listen rather than immediately dismiss the concerns or round them off to something they’ve dealt with before. A key technique can be literally lowering oneself, like crouching down to be at eye level of someone sitting at a desk, as this non-verbally makes it clear that the employee is now in the driver seat and the manager is along for the ride.
Effective managers know how to adjust their status when needed. The bests are naturals who never had to be taught. Second best are those who figure out the mechanics and can deploy intentional status play changes to get desired outcomes. I’m definitely not in the first camp. To any extent I’m successful as a manger, it’s because I’m in the second.
Ineffective managers, by contrast, just don’t understand any of this. They typically play high all the time, even at inappropriate times. That will keep a manager employed, but they’ll likely be in the bottom quartile of manager quality, and will only succeed in organizations where little understanding and adaptation is needed. The worst is low playing high status (think Michael Scott in The Office). You only stay a manager if you are low playing high due to organizational disfunction.
Okay, so all that out of the way, the way this worked for me was mostly in figuring out how to play high straight. I grew up with the idea that I was a smart person (because I was in fact more intelligent than lots of people around me, even if I had less experience and made mistakes due to lack of knowledge and wisdom). The archetypal smart person that most closely matched who I seemed to be was the awkward professor type who is a genius but also struggles to function. So I leaned into being that type of person and eschewed feedback I should be different because it wasn’t in line with the type of person I was trying to be.
This meant my default status mode was high playing low playing high, by which I mean I saw myself as a high status person who played low, not because he wanted to, but because the world didn’t recognize his genius, but who was going to press ahead and precociously aim for high status anyway. Getting into leadership, this kind of worked. Like I had good ideas, and I could convince people to follow them because they’d go “well, I don’t like the vibe, but he’s smart and been right before so let’s try it”, but it didn’t always work and I found that frustrating.
At the time I didn’t really understand what I was doing, though. What I realized, in part, after this particular insight, was that I could just play the status I wanted to straightforwardly. Playing multilayer status games is a defense mechanism, because if any one layer of the status play is challenges, you can fall back one more layer and defend from there. If you play straight, you’re immediately up against a challenge to prove you really are what you say you are. So integration looked like peeling back the layers and untangling my behaviors to be more straightforward.
I can’t say I totally figured it out from just this one insight. There was more going on that later insights would help me untangle. And I still struggle with it despite having a thorough theory and lots of experience putting it into play. My model of myself is that my brain literally runs slow, in that messages seem to propagate across it less quickly than they do for other people, as suggested by my relatively poor reaction times (+2 sd), and this makes it difficult for me to do high-bandwidth real-time processing of information like is required in social settings like work. All this is to say that I’ve had to dramatically over-solve almost every problem in my life to achieve normalcy, but I expect most people wouldn’t need so much as I have. Make of this what you will when thinking about what this means for me to have integrated insights: I can’t rely on S2 thinking to help me in the moment; I have do things with S1 or not at all (or rather with a significant async time delay).
I don’t have a very substantive response, but wanted to say:
A key technique can be literally lowering oneself, like crouching down to be at eye level of someone sitting at a desk, as this non-verbally makes it clear that the employee is now in the driver seat and the manager is along for the ride.
This is something I’ve intentionally done more of lately (not in a management capacity, but in other contexts), inspired by making yourself small. It’s seemed to work reasonably well but it’s hard to get a clear feedback signal on how it’s coming across.
My own story is a little different, but maybe not too different.
I wrote some of it a while ago in this post. I don’t know if I totally endorse the way I framed it there, so let me try again.
For basically as long as I can remember, my moment-to-moment experience of the world sucked. But of course when your every experience feels net negative, you adapt and learn to live with it. But I also have the kind of mind that likes to understand things and won’t rest if it doesn’t understand the mechanism by which something works, so I regularly turned this to myself. I was constantly dissatisfied with everything, and just when I’d think I’d nailed down why, it would turn out I had missed something huge and had to start over again.
Eventually this led to some moments of insight when I realized just how trapped by my own ontology I had become, and then found a way threw to a new way of seeing the world. These happened almost instantly, like a dam breaking and releasing all the realizations that had been held back.
This led me to positive psychology, because I noticed that sometimes I could make my life better, and eventually led me to realize that religions weren’t totally full of bunk, despite having been a life-long atheist. I’m not saying they’re right about the supernatural—as best I can tell, those claims are just false if interpreted straightforwardly—but I am saying I discovered that one of the things religions try to do is tell you how to live a happy life, and some do a better job of teaching you to do this than others.
To skip ahead, that’s what led me to Buddhism, Zen, and eventually practicing enough that I my moment-to-moment experience flipped. Now everything is always deeply okay, even if in a relative sense it’s not okay and needs to change, and it was thanks to taking all my skills as a rationalist and then using them with teachings from religion to find my way through.
Thanks a lot for sharing your experience! I would be very curious for you to further elaborate on this part:
Sure. This happened several times to me, each of which I interpret as a transition from one developmental level to the next, e.g. Kegan 3 → 4 → 5 → Cook-Greuter 5⁄6 → 6. Might help to talk about just one of these transitions.
In the Summer of 2015 I was thinking a lot about philosophy and trying to make sense of the world and kept noticing that, no matter what I did, I’d always run into some kind of hidden assumption that acted as a free variable in my thinking that was not constrained by anything and thus couldn’t be justified. I had been going in circles around this for a couple years at this point. I was also, coincidentally, trying to figure out how to manage the work of a growing engineering team and struggling because, to me, other people looked like black boxes that I only kind of understood.
In the midst of this I read The e-Myth on the recommendation of a coworker, and in the middle of it there was this line about how effective managers are neither always high or low status, but change how they act based on the situation, and combined with a lot of other reading I was doing this caused a lot of things to click into place.
The phenomenology of it was the same as every time I’ve had one of these big insights. It felt like my mind stopped for several seconds while I hung out in an empty state, and then I came back online with a deeper understanding of the world. In this case, it was something like “I can believe anything I want” in the sense that there really was some unjustified assumptions being made in my thinking, this was unavoidable, and it was okay because there was no other choice. All I could do was pick the assumptions to be the ones that would be most likely to make me have a good map of the world.
It then took a couple years to really integrate this insight, and it wasn’t until 2017 that I really started to grapple with the problems of the next one I would have.
I’m interested in the object level of “what are some nuts and bolts of how the high/low status manager thing worked, and how it applied”, and maybe a bit more meta-but-still-object-ish level of how that insight integrated with the rest of your worldview. (or, if that second part seems wrongly phrased… idk substitute the better question you think I should have asked? lol)
Sure. I’ll do my best to give some more details. This is all from memory, and it’s been a while, so I may end up giving ahistorical answers that mix up the timeline. Appologies in advance for any confusion this causes. If you have more questions or I’m not really getting at what you want to know, please follow up and I’ll try again.
First, let me give a little extra context on the status thing. I had also not long before read Impro, which has a big section on status games, and that definitely informed how The e-Myth hit me.
So, there’s this way in which managers play high and low. When managers play high they project high confidence. Sometimes this is needed, like when you need to motivate an employee to work on something. Sometimes it’s counterproductive, like when you need to learn from an employee. Playing too high status can make it hard for you to listen and for the person you need to listen to to feel like you are listening to them and thus encourage them to tell you what you need to know. Think of the know-it-all manager who can do your job better than you, or the aloof manager uninterested in the details.
Playing low status is often a problem for managers, and not being able to play high is one thing that keeps some people out of management. No one wants to follow a low status leader. A manager doesn’t necessarily need to be high status in the wider world, but they at least need to be able to claim higher status than their employees if those employees are going to want to do what they say.
The trouble is, sometimes managers need to play high playing low, like when a manager listens to their employee to understand the problems they are facing in their work, and actually listen rather than immediately dismiss the concerns or round them off to something they’ve dealt with before. A key technique can be literally lowering oneself, like crouching down to be at eye level of someone sitting at a desk, as this non-verbally makes it clear that the employee is now in the driver seat and the manager is along for the ride.
Effective managers know how to adjust their status when needed. The bests are naturals who never had to be taught. Second best are those who figure out the mechanics and can deploy intentional status play changes to get desired outcomes. I’m definitely not in the first camp. To any extent I’m successful as a manger, it’s because I’m in the second.
Ineffective managers, by contrast, just don’t understand any of this. They typically play high all the time, even at inappropriate times. That will keep a manager employed, but they’ll likely be in the bottom quartile of manager quality, and will only succeed in organizations where little understanding and adaptation is needed. The worst is low playing high status (think Michael Scott in The Office). You only stay a manager if you are low playing high due to organizational disfunction.
Okay, so all that out of the way, the way this worked for me was mostly in figuring out how to play high straight. I grew up with the idea that I was a smart person (because I was in fact more intelligent than lots of people around me, even if I had less experience and made mistakes due to lack of knowledge and wisdom). The archetypal smart person that most closely matched who I seemed to be was the awkward professor type who is a genius but also struggles to function. So I leaned into being that type of person and eschewed feedback I should be different because it wasn’t in line with the type of person I was trying to be.
This meant my default status mode was high playing low playing high, by which I mean I saw myself as a high status person who played low, not because he wanted to, but because the world didn’t recognize his genius, but who was going to press ahead and precociously aim for high status anyway. Getting into leadership, this kind of worked. Like I had good ideas, and I could convince people to follow them because they’d go “well, I don’t like the vibe, but he’s smart and been right before so let’s try it”, but it didn’t always work and I found that frustrating.
At the time I didn’t really understand what I was doing, though. What I realized, in part, after this particular insight, was that I could just play the status I wanted to straightforwardly. Playing multilayer status games is a defense mechanism, because if any one layer of the status play is challenges, you can fall back one more layer and defend from there. If you play straight, you’re immediately up against a challenge to prove you really are what you say you are. So integration looked like peeling back the layers and untangling my behaviors to be more straightforward.
I can’t say I totally figured it out from just this one insight. There was more going on that later insights would help me untangle. And I still struggle with it despite having a thorough theory and lots of experience putting it into play. My model of myself is that my brain literally runs slow, in that messages seem to propagate across it less quickly than they do for other people, as suggested by my relatively poor reaction times (+2 sd), and this makes it difficult for me to do high-bandwidth real-time processing of information like is required in social settings like work. All this is to say that I’ve had to dramatically over-solve almost every problem in my life to achieve normalcy, but I expect most people wouldn’t need so much as I have. Make of this what you will when thinking about what this means for me to have integrated insights: I can’t rely on S2 thinking to help me in the moment; I have do things with S1 or not at all (or rather with a significant async time delay).
Thanks!
I don’t have a very substantive response, but wanted to say:
This is something I’ve intentionally done more of lately (not in a management capacity, but in other contexts), inspired by making yourself small. It’s seemed to work reasonably well but it’s hard to get a clear feedback signal on how it’s coming across.