I hope other folks will chime in if they disagree with me, but I’d say that “Are you proud of yourself?” is always an attack, and specifically a parent-to-child sort of attack at that.
If you believe it’s likely that an honest answer to a question is likely to leave the person answering it feeling really bad, then the question is an attack. At the same time, I think you’re telling the truth when you say you’re perplexed that it was taken as a loaded question.
I’ve got some guesses about what’s going on with you, but it’s getting into pretty personal territory. Let me know if you’re interested, and if so, whether you’d prefer a public post or a private message.
I hope other folks will chime in if they disagree with me, but I’d say that “Are you proud of yourself?” is always an attack, and specifically a parent-to-child sort of attack at that.
Agree, but Silas’s actual question was
And if you have, are you proud of the way you’ve treated a person in that position?
However, I think asking people if they’re proud of what they’ve done when you’ve made it clear you don’t approve of it and they haven’t shown signs of pride is still an attack, though a milder one.
Why on Earth was the parent voted down? For goodness’ sake, I hadn’t seen Silas’s reply when I wrote it (as you can see by comparing the times).
(I’ll delete this comment as soon as both it and the parent are at 0 or more—so no need to downvote this comment if you sympathize about the parent but don’t think I should have written this.)
Okay, fair point—I did expect that Rain would report a “not proud”, though did not regard it as a sort of parent-to-child attack (how would I know?).
It’s just that some people seem to be so cold and calculating that I’m left wondering if there’s any empathic similarity at all—if they get the same feelings I do on being cruel, so I have to really “fall back a rank” (as I call it), and end up posing such questions.
(Yes, I know that sounds really cheesy and self-serving too, but …)
It’s just that some people seem to be so cold and calculating that I’m left wondering if there’s any empathic similarity at all
I trust you’re aware that this is an ironic complaint coming from someone who attributes his social problems to an autism-spectrum disorder?
In any event, I follow discussions like this with morbid fascination, because I sympathize and empathize with both you and your interlocutors. I think you make some really good points that need to be heard, but at the same time I completely understand the criticisms of your tone and manner. On the other hand, I find myself not infrequently tempted to speak in a similar tone, and it often takes a good deal of willpower on my part to avoid doing so; but then again, I would also probably react very negatively, even to the point of bitter resentment, if someone spoke in such a tone to me.
I genuinely don’t know where I stand on this, so I suppose have to incline towards the group consensus, as reflected by the voting patterns. (Which necessitates, of course, that I not vote myself, so as to avoid a sort of information cascade.)
It’s just that some people seem to be so cold and calculating that I’m left wondering if there’s any empathic similarity at all
I think that’s a consequence of distance. It’s easier to be a jerk to someone, deliberately or accidentally, when they seem like just a username on a forum; it’s harder to recognize that a conversation has gone awry when it’s all text; and it’s harder to back down and apologize when there are third parties watching.
In online conversations, the emotional palette for most people seems to be: detached, amused, or angry. All other emotions are rare exceptions in online discourse—not because people don’t feel them, but because text written by far-away people can’t easily bring them out.
Looking through this thread, I see lots of comments (both by you and at you) which seem to make detachment impossible. No one’s telling jokes, either, so the remaining option is anger.
Well, in your case, you’ve actually vidchatted with me, seen the actual, breathing human on the other side, found me to be more sociable than you expected
… and still didn’t feel any more inclined to clean up the misrepresentations you made of me that you were aware of :-(
I’ve gone back and edited the comment in question, and I apologize for not having done so earlier. (And, while this doesn’t really justify my not having edited it earlier—the reason I didn’t edit it then was that I still hadn’t fully understood what happened. Revisiting it now, I noticed what I missed the last time around—namely, a full enumeration of the people who could’ve prevented the situation from blowing up in the first place, including myself.) I’m not sure whether linking to or summarizing that thread would be a net positive or negative, so I won’t, but you can if you think making my edit visible is worth the chance that it derails the current conversation here.
You still haven’t corrected the critical error I’m referring to. For the fifth (yes, really fifth) time: you claimed that Alicorn (reasonably) asked me not to pester her. In reality, it was the unreasonable request that I not post comments nested under hers, no matter how relevant to the discussion they are, no matter how appropriate it is that my comment go there, no matter how impersonal the remark is.
I corrected you within minutes of the error. Others who noticed did the same. I corrected you when you made it again. I pointed it out to you in skype chat. Then, after you talked to me in a vidchat, you still did nothing to correct that misinterpretation.
Now, two months later, having rung the beat-down-Silas bell as loud as you can, while you got significant karma from your noble teaching of the obvious to me, while the comment with the error remains at +20, while the numerous readers are left with the misinformation you fed them
… you still haven’t corrected it. You still haven’t done anything to unring that bell.
What, exactly, am I supposed to make of this? You can actually see the breathing human on the other side, see his actual feelings, have an actual conversation, and still feel good about yourself.
This, folks, is why I wonder about the empathic disconnect.
(Edit: And not that it matters to someone of your strong moral character, but the very reason I phrased the earlier comment in the way you objected to is that another equally-authoritative poster told me that would be the appropriate way to do it—which you didn’t mention then, or edit it to mention now.)
I’ve gone back and edited again. I’d forgotten how much weight you put on that detail; it seemed strange to me at the time, but since it was part of the original feedback loop, I guess I can see why now—you’d already had lots of time to get angry over that particular detail, and I went and rounded it off to something different.
Silas, not having corrected that really wasn’t intended as a slight, although I see now that you took it that way. At the time, I interpreted it you as trying to deflect the conversation into (what I saw as) a minor detail. (And yes, you did try to tell me it wasn’t minor; I brushed it off as motivated cognition, without properly considering the ramifications).
Silas, not having corrected that really wasn’t intended as a slight, although I see now that you took it that way. At the time, I interpreted it you as trying to deflect the conversation into (what I saw as) a minor detail. (And yes, you did try to tell me it wasn’t minor; I brushed it off as motivated cognition, without properly considering the ramifications).
This is an example of what I meant when I say that many intellectual issues aren’t as obvious as stoplights.
Send me a PM if you have a diagnosis. I don’t think I’ve made general remarks on the mismatch anywhere, though I have pointed out when people, like jimrandomh, knowingly perpetuate lies about me after being repeatedly corrected.
I would like to help. And I may see your problem, you are very sensitive to insults from others but have a harder time seeing when you hurt others. But when you do so you are affected greatly.
I just have no idea how to help. My skin is probably overly thick. When I perceive insults, I tend to ignore them and downgrade the insulter as someone with whom I want to interact with or help, rather than kick up a social fuss.
I’m beginning to see what you’re up against.
I hope other folks will chime in if they disagree with me, but I’d say that “Are you proud of yourself?” is always an attack, and specifically a parent-to-child sort of attack at that.
If you believe it’s likely that an honest answer to a question is likely to leave the person answering it feeling really bad, then the question is an attack. At the same time, I think you’re telling the truth when you say you’re perplexed that it was taken as a loaded question.
I’ve got some guesses about what’s going on with you, but it’s getting into pretty personal territory. Let me know if you’re interested, and if so, whether you’d prefer a public post or a private message.
Agree, but Silas’s actual question was
which could be an honest inquiry.
You’re right about the quote.
However, I think asking people if they’re proud of what they’ve done when you’ve made it clear you don’t approve of it and they haven’t shown signs of pride is still an attack, though a milder one.
Why on Earth was the parent voted down? For goodness’ sake, I hadn’t seen Silas’s reply when I wrote it (as you can see by comparing the times).
(I’ll delete this comment as soon as both it and the parent are at 0 or more—so no need to downvote this comment if you sympathize about the parent but don’t think I should have written this.)
Okay, fair point—I did expect that Rain would report a “not proud”, though did not regard it as a sort of parent-to-child attack (how would I know?).
It’s just that some people seem to be so cold and calculating that I’m left wondering if there’s any empathic similarity at all—if they get the same feelings I do on being cruel, so I have to really “fall back a rank” (as I call it), and end up posing such questions.
(Yes, I know that sounds really cheesy and self-serving too, but …)
I trust you’re aware that this is an ironic complaint coming from someone who attributes his social problems to an autism-spectrum disorder?
In any event, I follow discussions like this with morbid fascination, because I sympathize and empathize with both you and your interlocutors. I think you make some really good points that need to be heard, but at the same time I completely understand the criticisms of your tone and manner. On the other hand, I find myself not infrequently tempted to speak in a similar tone, and it often takes a good deal of willpower on my part to avoid doing so; but then again, I would also probably react very negatively, even to the point of bitter resentment, if someone spoke in such a tone to me.
I genuinely don’t know where I stand on this, so I suppose have to incline towards the group consensus, as reflected by the voting patterns. (Which necessitates, of course, that I not vote myself, so as to avoid a sort of information cascade.)
I think that’s a consequence of distance. It’s easier to be a jerk to someone, deliberately or accidentally, when they seem like just a username on a forum; it’s harder to recognize that a conversation has gone awry when it’s all text; and it’s harder to back down and apologize when there are third parties watching.
In online conversations, the emotional palette for most people seems to be: detached, amused, or angry. All other emotions are rare exceptions in online discourse—not because people don’t feel them, but because text written by far-away people can’t easily bring them out.
Looking through this thread, I see lots of comments (both by you and at you) which seem to make detachment impossible. No one’s telling jokes, either, so the remaining option is anger.
AAAAAAAAGH! Rage rage hulksmash!
Well, in your case, you’ve actually vidchatted with me, seen the actual, breathing human on the other side, found me to be more sociable than you expected
… and still didn’t feel any more inclined to clean up the misrepresentations you made of me that you were aware of :-(
I’ve gone back and edited the comment in question, and I apologize for not having done so earlier. (And, while this doesn’t really justify my not having edited it earlier—the reason I didn’t edit it then was that I still hadn’t fully understood what happened. Revisiting it now, I noticed what I missed the last time around—namely, a full enumeration of the people who could’ve prevented the situation from blowing up in the first place, including myself.) I’m not sure whether linking to or summarizing that thread would be a net positive or negative, so I won’t, but you can if you think making my edit visible is worth the chance that it derails the current conversation here.
You still haven’t corrected the critical error I’m referring to. For the fifth (yes, really fifth) time: you claimed that Alicorn (reasonably) asked me not to pester her. In reality, it was the unreasonable request that I not post comments nested under hers, no matter how relevant to the discussion they are, no matter how appropriate it is that my comment go there, no matter how impersonal the remark is.
I corrected you within minutes of the error. Others who noticed did the same. I corrected you when you made it again. I pointed it out to you in skype chat. Then, after you talked to me in a vidchat, you still did nothing to correct that misinterpretation.
Now, two months later, having rung the beat-down-Silas bell as loud as you can, while you got significant karma from your noble teaching of the obvious to me, while the comment with the error remains at +20, while the numerous readers are left with the misinformation you fed them
… you still haven’t corrected it. You still haven’t done anything to unring that bell.
What, exactly, am I supposed to make of this? You can actually see the breathing human on the other side, see his actual feelings, have an actual conversation, and still feel good about yourself.
This, folks, is why I wonder about the empathic disconnect.
(Edit: And not that it matters to someone of your strong moral character, but the very reason I phrased the earlier comment in the way you objected to is that another equally-authoritative poster told me that would be the appropriate way to do it—which you didn’t mention then, or edit it to mention now.)
I’ve gone back and edited again. I’d forgotten how much weight you put on that detail; it seemed strange to me at the time, but since it was part of the original feedback loop, I guess I can see why now—you’d already had lots of time to get angry over that particular detail, and I went and rounded it off to something different.
Silas, not having corrected that really wasn’t intended as a slight, although I see now that you took it that way. At the time, I interpreted it you as trying to deflect the conversation into (what I saw as) a minor detail. (And yes, you did try to tell me it wasn’t minor; I brushed it off as motivated cognition, without properly considering the ramifications).
This is an example of what I meant when I say that many intellectual issues aren’t as obvious as stoplights.
Have you presented your thoughts on the mismatch between yourself and other people anywhere? I will happily delete my guess if it is not accurate.
I have a hard time knowing how to help if I don’t know the problem.
Send me a PM if you have a diagnosis. I don’t think I’ve made general remarks on the mismatch anywhere, though I have pointed out when people, like jimrandomh, knowingly perpetuate lies about me after being repeatedly corrected.
I would like to help. And I may see your problem, you are very sensitive to insults from others but have a harder time seeing when you hurt others. But when you do so you are affected greatly.
I just have no idea how to help. My skin is probably overly thick. When I perceive insults, I tend to ignore them and downgrade the insulter as someone with whom I want to interact with or help, rather than kick up a social fuss.