I’d say that was a post which was convincing without being obnoxious.
You raise an interesting point. I think it’s possible to be forceful and polite at the same time, but the rules for doing so are less obvious (at least to me) than the rules for being polite.
Anyone have ideas about how that combination works?
One general rule is “be harsh on the issue and soft on the person” (from Getting to Yes).
For instance, “every single part of your post struck me as being either a factual mistake, flawed reasoning, or gratuitous allusion to an irrelevant topic” is forceful but (if actually sincere and backed up with argument) conveys no disrespect for the author. We’re (almost) all human here, and so have brain farts every so often. Claiming that your interlocutor has made a mistake or a dozen is both fair and constructive.
By contrast, “so basically you like to make gratuitous references to Japanese culture” is insulting to your interlocutor, even as it leaves the issue unaddressed: you are implying (though not outright saying) that the allusion to Japanese culture was not relevant to the argument. The cooperative assumption is that your interlocutor thought otherwise, but you’re implying that they brought up something irrelevant on purpose.
I can attest from personal experience that the rule works well in situations of negotiation, which definitely are about changing your mind (both yours and the interlocutor’s, since if either refuses to budge, the negotiation will fail).
I doubt that being an asshole, in and of itself, ever helps.
For instance, “every single part of your post struck me as being either a factual mistake, flawed reasoning, or gratuitous allusion to an irrelevant topic” is forceful but (if actually sincere and backed up with argument) conveys no disrespect for the author.
Agreed, but I think the respectfulness of this quote can be improved further, by replacing “your post” with “this post”. It seems silly and doesn’t change the semantic content at all, but de-emphasizing the connection between a post and its author by avoiding the second person serves to dampen status effects and make it easier for the other person to back down or withdraw from the conversation.
I’ve framed it as “treat everyone as though they’re extremely thin-skinned egomaniacs”, and at this point I’m experimenting with being a little less cautious, just for my own sanity.
However, it’s true that a lot of people are very distracted by insults, and there’s no point in saying that they should be tougher.
I think that starting off acting somewhat lower status and underplaying your confidence in the start, at least, can work. It makes it feel less like an attack on the other person and can maybe make it feel more like they’re awesome rationalists for being so quick to see the evidence when it’s presented (assuming, of course, that you’re right.) And if you’re wrong, again, it won’t feel like an attack on them, and they’ll be more likely to present why they’re right in a way that shows your idea as an honest, easily-made mistake instead of harshly steamrolling your arguments and making you look like a dullard.
ETA: If you are right, but the person doesn’t see it after your first comment, then the “awesome rationalist quickly accepting evidence” feeling can take a hit. To make them still feel that, it might be a good idea to extrapolate/present more points and apologize for not being clear. Just a quick “Ah, sorry, I wasn’t clear. What I meant to say was blah blah blah” should work. Keeping deferential should be remembered. And if they’re right, and you didn’t understand it, hopefully caution will have prevented it from escalating any. The more of a status war it becomes/The harder it is to save face, the harder it becomes to convince the other person and get them to agree. Though there’s always the chance that you convince them but they won’t admit it because they’ll lose face.
(“You” is used as one/anyone/people in general, of course.)
I’d say that was a post which was convincing without being obnoxious.
You raise an interesting point. I think it’s possible to be forceful and polite at the same time, but the rules for doing so are less obvious (at least to me) than the rules for being polite.
Anyone have ideas about how that combination works?
One general rule is “be harsh on the issue and soft on the person” (from Getting to Yes).
For instance, “every single part of your post struck me as being either a factual mistake, flawed reasoning, or gratuitous allusion to an irrelevant topic” is forceful but (if actually sincere and backed up with argument) conveys no disrespect for the author. We’re (almost) all human here, and so have brain farts every so often. Claiming that your interlocutor has made a mistake or a dozen is both fair and constructive.
By contrast, “so basically you like to make gratuitous references to Japanese culture” is insulting to your interlocutor, even as it leaves the issue unaddressed: you are implying (though not outright saying) that the allusion to Japanese culture was not relevant to the argument. The cooperative assumption is that your interlocutor thought otherwise, but you’re implying that they brought up something irrelevant on purpose.
I can attest from personal experience that the rule works well in situations of negotiation, which definitely are about changing your mind (both yours and the interlocutor’s, since if either refuses to budge, the negotiation will fail).
I doubt that being an asshole, in and of itself, ever helps.
Agreed, but I think the respectfulness of this quote can be improved further, by replacing “your post” with “this post”. It seems silly and doesn’t change the semantic content at all, but de-emphasizing the connection between a post and its author by avoiding the second person serves to dampen status effects and make it easier for the other person to back down or withdraw from the conversation.
I’ve framed it as “treat everyone as though they’re extremely thin-skinned egomaniacs”, and at this point I’m experimenting with being a little less cautious, just for my own sanity.
However, it’s true that a lot of people are very distracted by insults, and there’s no point in saying that they should be tougher.
I think that starting off acting somewhat lower status and underplaying your confidence in the start, at least, can work. It makes it feel less like an attack on the other person and can maybe make it feel more like they’re awesome rationalists for being so quick to see the evidence when it’s presented (assuming, of course, that you’re right.) And if you’re wrong, again, it won’t feel like an attack on them, and they’ll be more likely to present why they’re right in a way that shows your idea as an honest, easily-made mistake instead of harshly steamrolling your arguments and making you look like a dullard.
ETA: If you are right, but the person doesn’t see it after your first comment, then the “awesome rationalist quickly accepting evidence” feeling can take a hit. To make them still feel that, it might be a good idea to extrapolate/present more points and apologize for not being clear. Just a quick “Ah, sorry, I wasn’t clear. What I meant to say was blah blah blah” should work. Keeping deferential should be remembered. And if they’re right, and you didn’t understand it, hopefully caution will have prevented it from escalating any. The more of a status war it becomes/The harder it is to save face, the harder it becomes to convince the other person and get them to agree. Though there’s always the chance that you convince them but they won’t admit it because they’ll lose face.
(“You” is used as one/anyone/people in general, of course.)