I actually find this framing—that atheists are/were this semi-oppressed low-status group—pretty unpersuasive. As a matter of fact that vast majority of atheists come from the most high status groups in society. And there is a long history of atheistic elites looking down on the superstitions of the proles. Even the admission of atheism itself doesn’t so much signal low-status as it does a sort of untrustworthy amorality while simultaneously signalling intelligence and affiliation with high-status academics. Trust is certainly related to status; but I don’t think it is quite the same thing. I would compare the social penalties of explicit atheism to something like the social penalties of “acting white” among African-American teenagers. It’s not punishment for signalling low-status but punishment for signalling high-status in an unwanted way.
It seems like the atheist “movement” probably wouldn’t have happened without our strong social pressures against explicitly recognizing cognitive superiority. The elimination of codified status increases resources spent on signalling un-codified status for the same reason violence only breaks out when there is uncertainty over who will win. And it seems like past generations of atheists routinely embraced a sort of noblese oblige about religion. “Yes, people who believe in God are certainly wrong but it is probably good for them and there is no need to show off how much smarter I am than they.” Norms against paternalism make that attitude harder to hold today. The overall result is a climate of insecurity: the attitudes that used to let atheists keep quiet about their beliefs while maintaining a sense of superiority no longer exist. Some atheists might notice that the pledge of allegiance contains “under God” and most Americans don’t want an atheist as President. Because of status insecurity they take these as genuine status threats and come up with this whole idea that they are an oppressed group.
Now, holding religious beliefs certainly comes with a cost. So maybe trying to make atheism even more high status is worthwhile. But religion appears to have genuinely beneficial effects on at least some people—so I’m not sure that equation balances out the way us atheists would like it to. And of course, it is unlikely that outspoken atheists are really motivated by a desire to reduce the social costs of religiosity. If that were the case they would be content to advocate for the sort of secularized theism/ agnostic spirituality which is easier for people to adopt but contains almost no risk of fanaticism or misplaced attention on theology. Really, the only reason to adamantly advocate for a narrow metaphysical position that has zero practical implications is to show off how smart you are.
Religious apologetics also contains some status-building parts (it often says that people are irreligious because they are stupid and evil), but for the religious side that’s not the only channel for status signalling. There is nothing offensive about atheists that you wouldn’t already hear repeatedly in most churches. So I guess it is safe to assume that religious apologetics’ primary function is something else.
Really? I think the facade of successful argument is absolutely crucial for religious people to maintain the pretense that they are actually smarter than atheists. It’s a much more successful set of signals than complaints about sinners or yelling about atheists going to hell. The latter has the reek of “yes, you might be low-status now but in Heaven everything will be made right”.
The word “status” is too wide brush; sometimes is may be argued that both sides have higher status depending on which aspects one focuses on. Also, it may depend on country; although I think this specific case should be true for USA, too. Instead of debating whether a falling tree in an empty forest makes a sound, let’s address the specific claims:
Scientists are respected (by some parts of society), and they are often irreligious. The state supports them by giving them money, letting them run universities, etc.
Priests are respected (by some parts of society). The state supports them by giving them special tax status, etc. (details depend on specific country).
Schools teach secular science. Sometimes there are problems, but the victories are overwhelmingly on one side.
Expressions of religion are pushed into schools. Depending on the specific country we may be talking about mandatory religious education, crosses on the walls, or making students recite the Pledge of Allegiance with added words “under God”.
Many religious people openly say they wouldn’t vote an atheist into an office. Therefore people have to pay lip service to religion if they compete for an elected position. (On the other hand, politics is always about saying what your voters want to hear.)
Ignoring religious rules is something powerful people can do to signal their power.
It is socially accepted for religious people to say offensive things about atheists; things that would be classified as an obvious hate speech if they were made about some other group of people outside of religious context.
Laws are mostly secular. Religious people can get some victories like preventing gay marriage; but they are not able to have people executed for heresy, and usually can’t even make abortion illegal. (There are countries where this is completely different, but most of the developed world is like this.)
Okay, now it seems balanced, perhaps even better for the atheist side. Seems like religion’s power is mostly in “talking”, while atheists have power in “doing”. An atheist must sometimes pay lip service to the religion, but the religious people are aware that often this is all they get. Now if the atheists stop even being respectful to religious people, they lost it all… or must organize a counter-attack. The religious people still have an advantage in numbers. But if they lose real power and respect, they will start losing the numbers, too. And I guess it already happens… just very slowly.
Looking back to my previous post… I guess this is what it feels like from inside to believe to be arguing for the underdog when in reality one merely signals their belonging to the winning faction. Interesting!
Most of what you’re counting as victories for atheism seem to point more to secular reductionism or Enlightenment values than to atheism per se. I suppose there’s an argument to be made that that sort of thing is implicitly atheist, but I’d be more comfortable saying that it represents a cultural tendency that might be excluded by some religious frameworks but basically runs orthogonal to religiosity as such. Most of the people originally spearheading the Enlightenment weren’t atheists, although I wouldn’t call many of them traditional religionists by any means.
Put another way, it’s possible for atheist identity to be socially condemned but secular praxis not to be. Here in the US, it’s not at all hard to find nominal Christians that nonetheless rely on secular reductionist models for pretty much all decisions not involving actual religious ritual; I’d even call that the norm in many segments of society. If you’re feeling generous, you could also add a selection of moral issues that reduce to complicated sociological questions without much in the way of empirical backing.
2nd sentence: If so, they are those who can afford to burn some status to avow it. Saying something is expensive does not mean that only poor people have it. This breaks the parallel given above, yes.
3rd sentence: there is a long history of any elite looking down on anything of the proles.
it is unlikely that outspoken atheists are really motivated by a desire to reduce the social costs of religiosity.
… why? Some try what you suggest, but I hardly see it as an slam-dunk superior strategy.
If so, they are those who can afford to burn some status to avow it.
Sure, but you don’t really think IQ and education have nothing to do with whether someone is an atheist, right?
Here is a question; are people among the cognitive and educational who have other status hits more or less likely to be an atheist? If you’re right then men who are educated and have high IQs but are gay should be less likely to admit to atheism, yes?
… why? Some try what you suggest, but I hardly see it as an slam-dunk superior strategy.
The point isn’t even whether one is better than the other (though it certainly seems plausible that a less radical, more comforting position made with a kinder, politer tone would do better). The point is people who try that strategy don’t get book deals. They don’t even get popular on the internet. And that is despite it probably being the more popular position over all. They don’t get popular because the readership of pro-atheist arguments are people who already agree with the arguments. Remember this quote:
Why is it that few, if any, outsiders will be persuaded by Craig’s apology? From the way he presents it, we get the impression that he thinks nobody who is informed, rational, and sincere could disagree with it...
You could replace “Craig” with Dawkins, Harris or Hitchens and no one would even notice.
Sure, but you don’t really think IQ and education have nothing to do with whether someone is an atheist, right?
If they do because people with those traits can more afford to lose the status, that’s still having something to do with it.
Besides, there’s the huge confounding factor that being educated or high IQ is more likely to lead to lead you to truth and atheism is true.
If you’re right then men who are educated and have high IQs but are gay should be less likely to admit to atheism, yes?
If the status lost by being atheist and the status lost by being gay are completely different, this would be true. I would suggest that the status that is lost by either one overlaps heavily, given the nature of anti-gay bias. Someone who already lost that portion of status because of being gay cannot lose it again by being atheist. This would neutralize or even reverse the effect.
If you’re right then men who are educated and have high IQs but are gay should be less likely to admit to atheism, yes?
Sure, if they don’t perceive religious people pushing them away. Not sure what community of high-IQ men would let you test this, but perhaps you could study Unitarians.
The point is people who try that strategy don’t get book deals.
Did you mean to say something less blatantly false?
I’m not sure how many on that list actually qualify as non-believers who who write books targeted to religious fundamentalists urging them to moderate their views. Most sound like religious people trying to get atheists to be more spiritual. But even to the extent that they exemplify that approach: outside of the Dalai Lama how many books have the last 20 winners sold? How many are idolized by atheists?
Sure, but you don’t really think IQ and education have nothing to do with whether someone is an atheist, right?
That was a confounding factor so obvious that I thought it didn’t need to be mentioned. Its existence certainly doesn’t strengthen your case!
If you’re right then men who are educated and have high IQs but are gay should be less likely to admit to atheism, yes?
That’s a very interesting question! It does seem to be an implication, at least at first glance. I suspect that it will depend on the relative prevalence of anti-gay sentiment in religious and atheistic communities, which will vary from locale to locale.
(so far, this is basically a +1 to Jiro’s comment)
The point is people who try that strategy don’t get book deals.
That provides a selection effect. It’s another step from there to it warping the motivations. And it’s a doozy. You’re asking us to believe that atheists would seriously consider writing books just to get people to adopt a more moderate tone in their religion, without advocating for atheism, just because that would be more effective, and that it took a monetary incentive to get them to change their minds?
The idea that they couldn’t possibly write such a volume seems like it ought to enter into the reasoning process somewhere.
That was a confounding factor so obvious that I thought it didn’t need to be mentioned. Its existence certainly doesn’t strengthen your case!
Of course it does: being high status (having a high IQ and a good education) makes you an atheist. So when norms are changed to benefit atheists they’re benefiting a high-status group of people. If atheist books are about making atheists higher status it’s about making high-status people have higher status.
It’s like if I wrote about how bespoke suits are awesome. Sure you could point to lots of people who make fun of bespoke suits (“you look like a dandy” or “sell-out!”) and suggest that rich educated people are the only people who can accept the status hit to wear them. But wearing a bespoke suit is a marker of high status groups. If you don’t have a great job in certain sectors and make a lot of money you don’t end up wearing one. It isn’t meaningful to try to think about the status effects of atheism and suit-wearing in isolation from the cultural environment in which they exist. Being an atheist is part of being part of the cognitive elite.
You’re asking us to believe that atheists would seriously consider writing books just to get people to adopt a more moderate tone in their religion, without advocating for atheism, just because that would be more effective, and that it took a monetary incentive to get them to change their minds?
I’m saying that atheist apologetics is more or less symmetrical to Christian apologetics in it’s function. They provide people with confidence in their worldview and bolster their status. As such, the market for books by atheists is driven by atheists just like the market for books by Christians is driven by Christians. If atheist writing and activism were actually about trying to reduce the social costs of religion they wouldn’t sound like Richard Dawkins and Chris Hitchens.
I’m not saying there is some conspiracy among atheist book publishers to keep people from being moderate. I’m saying the market reflects what people value: signalling intelligence and status, not an altruistic drive to help society by reducing the impact of religion. I’m not saying there is anything sinister at work. I’m certain atheists and Christians both think they are trying to improve the world: but really it’s mostly about signaling.
Of course it does: being high status (having a high IQ and a good education) makes you an atheist.
Whoa, you’re mucking around with the causality here.
Having high IQ and good education → high status;
same factors → atheist.
They share causes. One does not follow from the other.
On the publishing, you just said right there that the filter lies at the publisher level—not the author level. The more controversial, less useful books sell better. That I would agree with, but that’s not what you said earlier—you specifically addressed the authors’ motivations. Nothing you’ve said addresses that.
Neither of us even moved towards suggesting a conspiracy. Where did that come from?
On the publishing, you just said right there that the filter lies at the publisher level—not the author level. The more controversial, less useful books sell better. That I would agree with, but that’s not what you said earlier—you specifically addressed the authors’ motivations. Nothing you’ve said addresses that.
Authors respond to incentives like everyone else in the history of the world. But I was never talking about authors motivations: I was talking about the values illustrated by the atheist movement as can be seen from what the book market produces.
Neither of us even moved towards suggesting a conspiracy. Where did that come from?
I can’t understand what you disputable about my position so I was guessing at possible miscommunications.
“Outspoken atheists” is a much, much larger group than “atheist authors”, though authors are certainly a part of that group. But my argument is that the values of the former group are revealed in their book preferences. Obviously the case for any one author will be weaker- about as weak as the case for William Lane Craig not caring about converting people is (why can’t he just be telling the truth, works just as well for him).
As a matter of fact that vast majority of atheists come from the most high status groups in society.
… because people who are otherwise high status are the only ones who can afford to take the hit in status from being atheist. (Also, because other things being equal, being right is more likely to lead to high status than being wrong.)
And of course, it is unlikely that outspoken atheists are really motivated by a desire to reduce the social costs of religiosity. If that were the case they would be content to advocate for the sort of secularized theism/ agnostic spirituality which is easier for people to adopt but contains almost no risk of fanaticism or misplaced attention on theology. Really, the only reason to adamantly advocate for a narrow metaphysical position that has zero practical implications is to show off how smart you are.
That doesn’t follow, because people value being honest. Most people would not advocate a position that’s 95% of their own position, but insincere, in preference to sincerely advocating their own position, even if the remaining 5% has no practical applications.
… because people who are otherwise high status are the only ones who can afford to take the hit in status from being atheist. (Also, because other things being equal, being right is more likely to lead to high status than being wrong.)
It seems plausible there is some selection effect like that. But people who have high IQs and good science educations are way more likely to become atheists for what seem like obvious reasons. 72% of the National Academy of Scientists are explicitly atheist. You don’t really think that’s just because they face less stigma, right?
That doesn’t follow, because people value being honest.
Honesty is a sufficient explanation for why, when asked if they believe in God, someone answers “No.”. It isn’t an explanation for dedicated careers, blogs and books to showing everyone that God doesn’t exist. There are lots of things people can spend their time talking about and honesty doesn’t explain the need to tell people they are wrong. Honesty isn’t a sufficient explanation for the same reason it isn’t a sufficient explanation of Christian apologetics.
Most people would not advocate a position that’s 95% of their own position, but insincere, in preference to sincerely advocating their own position, even if the remaining 5% has no practical applications.
Really? I see people doing that all the time. 5% even seems low. In contexts where what people advocate is actually going to have an impact (like within social groups or in the work place) you routinely see people compromise and bite their tongue in order to make their advocacy more persuasive. Unrestrained, unproductive honesty is a great indicator that someone is interested less in persuading and more in showing off. Compare politicians to political/policy journalists and compare both to the average partisan on the Internet. The less someone thinks their words will accomplish the more likely they are to speak in an unfiltered way.
72% of the National Academy of Scientists are explicitly atheist. You don’t really think that’s just because they face less stigma, right?
It’s not just because they face less stigma. It’s also because in order to become a scientist, you have to be able to reason well, and if you reason well, you’re more likely to be atheist. You may as well study whether scientists can balance their checkbook, discover that more of them can than the general public, and conclude that balancing their checkbook signals high status rather than the fact that smart people balance their checkbooks more than stupid people.
Honesty is a sufficient explanation for why, when asked if they believe in God, someone answers “No.”. It isn’t an explanation for dedicated careers, blogs and books to showing everyone that God doesn’t exist.
The honesty just explains the last 5%. As you acknowledge, other explanations would explain why someone would write books about a generalized secular agnosticism. Honesty is just what leads an atheist to write the book about atheism instead of agnosticism, rather than being his impetus for writing a book at all.
You may as well study whether scientists can balance their checkbook, discover that more of them can than the general public, and conclude that balancing their checkbook signals high status rather than the fact that smart people balance their checkbooks more than stupid people.
Publicly mentioning balancing your checkbook certainly signals higher status! The explanation for why people don’t believe in God is that God doesn’t exist and people with intelligence and education can figure that out. The explanation for why people go around loudly proclaiming disbelief is that it signals they are intelligent and well educated enough to figure out that God doesn’t exist.
The honesty just explains the last 5%. As you acknowledge, other explanations would explain why someone would write books about a generalized secular agnosticism. Honesty is just what leads an atheist to write the book about atheism instead of agnosticism, rather than being his impetus for writing a book at all.
So you’re saying someone decides to dedicate their lives to reducing the impact of religion on the world and then honesty just compels them to write in a way that is optimized for signalling the intelligence and status of their community rather than reducing the impact of religion? It’s not just saying “there is no god” when you could say “maybe there is no god”: it’s about tone and language. Most popular atheist writing contains exactly the same tone of condescension as the stuff William Lane Craig writes, the same tone of superiority as a book written by Al Franken or Sean Hannity.
Do you agree that religious and political polemics aren’t really about helping the other side see the light? If so, why would it be different for atheism?
I’m not saying that Richard Dawkins sits down to write “The God Delusion” thinking “ugh, those religious people are so low status, I need to write a book about how much better atheists and scientists are”. I adore Dawkins. But if you want to see what people value: look at the market. The most successful and respected atheist writers are/were renowned not for empathizing, patient explanations but for their barbed wit and knockdown rhetoric. The second tier of atheist media is even worse: the Victor Stenger books, the Bill Maher movie. Look at r/atheism which is entirely image macros about how theists are dumb being sent back and forth between atheists. I see no indication anywhere that the movement values people and work based on how effective they are at deconverting theists and not just how good they are at making other atheists feel good about themselves.
So you’re saying someone decides to dedicate their lives to reducing the impact of religion on the world and then honesty just compels them to write in a way that is optimized for signalling the intelligence and status of their community rather than reducing the impact of religion?
Huh? They decide to write the book in order to reduce the impact of religion. The fact that the book is specifically atheist rather than “secularized theism/ agnostic spirituality” happens because they are atheist and being honest about their beliefs.
It is far from unlikely that someone who writes an anti-religion book and is an atheist would write the book from an atheist perspective rather than another anti-religion perspective. That choice is not so implausible that you need to explain the coincidence away by saying that that’s not his real reason and it must be status signalling instead.
You’re missing the forest for the trees. Obviously any one person could be writing for any reason at all. The question is what do successful atheist polemics have in common, and why.
Again, I’m curious if you see the pattern I’m pointing out in other areas? Do you think most popular political books are optimized to convert the undecided or the opposition? Or are atheists special?
I think the facade of successful argument is absolutely crucial for religious people to maintain the pretense that they are actually smarter than atheists.
Very few of the religious people I know attempt to frame themselves as smarter than atheists (nor as smarter than members of other religions). Rather, they attempt to frame themselves as more moral than atheists. (Although the constraints on discourse usually obligate them to do so very indirectly.)
That said, the facade of successful argument is admittedly crucial to avoid being framed as dumber than atheists. Which isn’t the same thing at all.
I actually find this framing—that atheists are/were this semi-oppressed low-status group—pretty unpersuasive. As a matter of fact that vast majority of atheists come from the most high status groups in society. And there is a long history of atheistic elites looking down on the superstitions of the proles. Even the admission of atheism itself doesn’t so much signal low-status as it does a sort of untrustworthy amorality while simultaneously signalling intelligence and affiliation with high-status academics. Trust is certainly related to status; but I don’t think it is quite the same thing. I would compare the social penalties of explicit atheism to something like the social penalties of “acting white” among African-American teenagers. It’s not punishment for signalling low-status but punishment for signalling high-status in an unwanted way.
It seems like the atheist “movement” probably wouldn’t have happened without our strong social pressures against explicitly recognizing cognitive superiority. The elimination of codified status increases resources spent on signalling un-codified status for the same reason violence only breaks out when there is uncertainty over who will win. And it seems like past generations of atheists routinely embraced a sort of noblese oblige about religion. “Yes, people who believe in God are certainly wrong but it is probably good for them and there is no need to show off how much smarter I am than they.” Norms against paternalism make that attitude harder to hold today. The overall result is a climate of insecurity: the attitudes that used to let atheists keep quiet about their beliefs while maintaining a sense of superiority no longer exist. Some atheists might notice that the pledge of allegiance contains “under God” and most Americans don’t want an atheist as President. Because of status insecurity they take these as genuine status threats and come up with this whole idea that they are an oppressed group.
Now, holding religious beliefs certainly comes with a cost. So maybe trying to make atheism even more high status is worthwhile. But religion appears to have genuinely beneficial effects on at least some people—so I’m not sure that equation balances out the way us atheists would like it to. And of course, it is unlikely that outspoken atheists are really motivated by a desire to reduce the social costs of religiosity. If that were the case they would be content to advocate for the sort of secularized theism/ agnostic spirituality which is easier for people to adopt but contains almost no risk of fanaticism or misplaced attention on theology. Really, the only reason to adamantly advocate for a narrow metaphysical position that has zero practical implications is to show off how smart you are.
Really? I think the facade of successful argument is absolutely crucial for religious people to maintain the pretense that they are actually smarter than atheists. It’s a much more successful set of signals than complaints about sinners or yelling about atheists going to hell. The latter has the reek of “yes, you might be low-status now but in Heaven everything will be made right”.
The word “status” is too wide brush; sometimes is may be argued that both sides have higher status depending on which aspects one focuses on. Also, it may depend on country; although I think this specific case should be true for USA, too. Instead of debating whether a falling tree in an empty forest makes a sound, let’s address the specific claims:
Scientists are respected (by some parts of society), and they are often irreligious. The state supports them by giving them money, letting them run universities, etc.
Priests are respected (by some parts of society). The state supports them by giving them special tax status, etc. (details depend on specific country).
Schools teach secular science. Sometimes there are problems, but the victories are overwhelmingly on one side.
Expressions of religion are pushed into schools. Depending on the specific country we may be talking about mandatory religious education, crosses on the walls, or making students recite the Pledge of Allegiance with added words “under God”.
Many religious people openly say they wouldn’t vote an atheist into an office. Therefore people have to pay lip service to religion if they compete for an elected position. (On the other hand, politics is always about saying what your voters want to hear.)
Ignoring religious rules is something powerful people can do to signal their power.
It is socially accepted for religious people to say offensive things about atheists; things that would be classified as an obvious hate speech if they were made about some other group of people outside of religious context.
Laws are mostly secular. Religious people can get some victories like preventing gay marriage; but they are not able to have people executed for heresy, and usually can’t even make abortion illegal. (There are countries where this is completely different, but most of the developed world is like this.)
Okay, now it seems balanced, perhaps even better for the atheist side. Seems like religion’s power is mostly in “talking”, while atheists have power in “doing”. An atheist must sometimes pay lip service to the religion, but the religious people are aware that often this is all they get. Now if the atheists stop even being respectful to religious people, they lost it all… or must organize a counter-attack. The religious people still have an advantage in numbers. But if they lose real power and respect, they will start losing the numbers, too. And I guess it already happens… just very slowly.
Looking back to my previous post… I guess this is what it feels like from inside to believe to be arguing for the underdog when in reality one merely signals their belonging to the winning faction. Interesting!
Most of what you’re counting as victories for atheism seem to point more to secular reductionism or Enlightenment values than to atheism per se. I suppose there’s an argument to be made that that sort of thing is implicitly atheist, but I’d be more comfortable saying that it represents a cultural tendency that might be excluded by some religious frameworks but basically runs orthogonal to religiosity as such. Most of the people originally spearheading the Enlightenment weren’t atheists, although I wouldn’t call many of them traditional religionists by any means.
Put another way, it’s possible for atheist identity to be socially condemned but secular praxis not to be. Here in the US, it’s not at all hard to find nominal Christians that nonetheless rely on secular reductionist models for pretty much all decisions not involving actual religious ritual; I’d even call that the norm in many segments of society. If you’re feeling generous, you could also add a selection of moral issues that reduce to complicated sociological questions without much in the way of empirical backing.
Exactly.
2nd sentence: If so, they are those who can afford to burn some status to avow it. Saying something is expensive does not mean that only poor people have it. This breaks the parallel given above, yes.
3rd sentence: there is a long history of any elite looking down on anything of the proles.
… why? Some try what you suggest, but I hardly see it as an slam-dunk superior strategy.
Sure, but you don’t really think IQ and education have nothing to do with whether someone is an atheist, right?
Here is a question; are people among the cognitive and educational who have other status hits more or less likely to be an atheist? If you’re right then men who are educated and have high IQs but are gay should be less likely to admit to atheism, yes?
The point isn’t even whether one is better than the other (though it certainly seems plausible that a less radical, more comforting position made with a kinder, politer tone would do better). The point is people who try that strategy don’t get book deals. They don’t even get popular on the internet. And that is despite it probably being the more popular position over all. They don’t get popular because the readership of pro-atheist arguments are people who already agree with the arguments. Remember this quote:
You could replace “Craig” with Dawkins, Harris or Hitchens and no one would even notice.
If they do because people with those traits can more afford to lose the status, that’s still having something to do with it.
Besides, there’s the huge confounding factor that being educated or high IQ is more likely to lead to lead you to truth and atheism is true.
If the status lost by being atheist and the status lost by being gay are completely different, this would be true. I would suggest that the status that is lost by either one overlaps heavily, given the nature of anti-gay bias. Someone who already lost that portion of status because of being gay cannot lose it again by being atheist. This would neutralize or even reverse the effect.
Sure, if they don’t perceive religious people pushing them away. Not sure what community of high-IQ men would let you test this, but perhaps you could study Unitarians.
Did you mean to say something less blatantly false?
I’m not sure how many on that list actually qualify as non-believers who who write books targeted to religious fundamentalists urging them to moderate their views. Most sound like religious people trying to get atheists to be more spiritual. But even to the extent that they exemplify that approach: outside of the Dalai Lama how many books have the last 20 winners sold? How many are idolized by atheists?
That was a confounding factor so obvious that I thought it didn’t need to be mentioned. Its existence certainly doesn’t strengthen your case!
That’s a very interesting question! It does seem to be an implication, at least at first glance. I suspect that it will depend on the relative prevalence of anti-gay sentiment in religious and atheistic communities, which will vary from locale to locale.
(so far, this is basically a +1 to Jiro’s comment)
That provides a selection effect. It’s another step from there to it warping the motivations. And it’s a doozy. You’re asking us to believe that atheists would seriously consider writing books just to get people to adopt a more moderate tone in their religion, without advocating for atheism, just because that would be more effective, and that it took a monetary incentive to get them to change their minds?
The idea that they couldn’t possibly write such a volume seems like it ought to enter into the reasoning process somewhere.
Of course it does: being high status (having a high IQ and a good education) makes you an atheist. So when norms are changed to benefit atheists they’re benefiting a high-status group of people. If atheist books are about making atheists higher status it’s about making high-status people have higher status.
It’s like if I wrote about how bespoke suits are awesome. Sure you could point to lots of people who make fun of bespoke suits (“you look like a dandy” or “sell-out!”) and suggest that rich educated people are the only people who can accept the status hit to wear them. But wearing a bespoke suit is a marker of high status groups. If you don’t have a great job in certain sectors and make a lot of money you don’t end up wearing one. It isn’t meaningful to try to think about the status effects of atheism and suit-wearing in isolation from the cultural environment in which they exist. Being an atheist is part of being part of the cognitive elite.
I’m saying that atheist apologetics is more or less symmetrical to Christian apologetics in it’s function. They provide people with confidence in their worldview and bolster their status. As such, the market for books by atheists is driven by atheists just like the market for books by Christians is driven by Christians. If atheist writing and activism were actually about trying to reduce the social costs of religion they wouldn’t sound like Richard Dawkins and Chris Hitchens.
I’m not saying there is some conspiracy among atheist book publishers to keep people from being moderate. I’m saying the market reflects what people value: signalling intelligence and status, not an altruistic drive to help society by reducing the impact of religion. I’m not saying there is anything sinister at work. I’m certain atheists and Christians both think they are trying to improve the world: but really it’s mostly about signaling.
Whoa, you’re mucking around with the causality here.
Having high IQ and good education → high status;
same factors → atheist.
They share causes. One does not follow from the other.
On the publishing, you just said right there that the filter lies at the publisher level—not the author level. The more controversial, less useful books sell better. That I would agree with, but that’s not what you said earlier—you specifically addressed the authors’ motivations. Nothing you’ve said addresses that.
Neither of us even moved towards suggesting a conspiracy. Where did that come from?
Authors respond to incentives like everyone else in the history of the world. But I was never talking about authors motivations: I was talking about the values illustrated by the atheist movement as can be seen from what the book market produces.
I can’t understand what you disputable about my position so I was guessing at possible miscommunications.
vs
“Outspoken atheists” is a much, much larger group than “atheist authors”, though authors are certainly a part of that group. But my argument is that the values of the former group are revealed in their book preferences. Obviously the case for any one author will be weaker- about as weak as the case for William Lane Craig not caring about converting people is (why can’t he just be telling the truth, works just as well for him).
… because people who are otherwise high status are the only ones who can afford to take the hit in status from being atheist. (Also, because other things being equal, being right is more likely to lead to high status than being wrong.)
That doesn’t follow, because people value being honest. Most people would not advocate a position that’s 95% of their own position, but insincere, in preference to sincerely advocating their own position, even if the remaining 5% has no practical applications.
It seems plausible there is some selection effect like that. But people who have high IQs and good science educations are way more likely to become atheists for what seem like obvious reasons. 72% of the National Academy of Scientists are explicitly atheist. You don’t really think that’s just because they face less stigma, right?
Honesty is a sufficient explanation for why, when asked if they believe in God, someone answers “No.”. It isn’t an explanation for dedicated careers, blogs and books to showing everyone that God doesn’t exist. There are lots of things people can spend their time talking about and honesty doesn’t explain the need to tell people they are wrong. Honesty isn’t a sufficient explanation for the same reason it isn’t a sufficient explanation of Christian apologetics.
Really? I see people doing that all the time. 5% even seems low. In contexts where what people advocate is actually going to have an impact (like within social groups or in the work place) you routinely see people compromise and bite their tongue in order to make their advocacy more persuasive. Unrestrained, unproductive honesty is a great indicator that someone is interested less in persuading and more in showing off. Compare politicians to political/policy journalists and compare both to the average partisan on the Internet. The less someone thinks their words will accomplish the more likely they are to speak in an unfiltered way.
It’s not just because they face less stigma. It’s also because in order to become a scientist, you have to be able to reason well, and if you reason well, you’re more likely to be atheist. You may as well study whether scientists can balance their checkbook, discover that more of them can than the general public, and conclude that balancing their checkbook signals high status rather than the fact that smart people balance their checkbooks more than stupid people.
The honesty just explains the last 5%. As you acknowledge, other explanations would explain why someone would write books about a generalized secular agnosticism. Honesty is just what leads an atheist to write the book about atheism instead of agnosticism, rather than being his impetus for writing a book at all.
Publicly mentioning balancing your checkbook certainly signals higher status! The explanation for why people don’t believe in God is that God doesn’t exist and people with intelligence and education can figure that out. The explanation for why people go around loudly proclaiming disbelief is that it signals they are intelligent and well educated enough to figure out that God doesn’t exist.
So you’re saying someone decides to dedicate their lives to reducing the impact of religion on the world and then honesty just compels them to write in a way that is optimized for signalling the intelligence and status of their community rather than reducing the impact of religion? It’s not just saying “there is no god” when you could say “maybe there is no god”: it’s about tone and language. Most popular atheist writing contains exactly the same tone of condescension as the stuff William Lane Craig writes, the same tone of superiority as a book written by Al Franken or Sean Hannity.
Do you agree that religious and political polemics aren’t really about helping the other side see the light? If so, why would it be different for atheism?
I’m not saying that Richard Dawkins sits down to write “The God Delusion” thinking “ugh, those religious people are so low status, I need to write a book about how much better atheists and scientists are”. I adore Dawkins. But if you want to see what people value: look at the market. The most successful and respected atheist writers are/were renowned not for empathizing, patient explanations but for their barbed wit and knockdown rhetoric. The second tier of atheist media is even worse: the Victor Stenger books, the Bill Maher movie. Look at r/atheism which is entirely image macros about how theists are dumb being sent back and forth between atheists. I see no indication anywhere that the movement values people and work based on how effective they are at deconverting theists and not just how good they are at making other atheists feel good about themselves.
Huh? They decide to write the book in order to reduce the impact of religion. The fact that the book is specifically atheist rather than “secularized theism/ agnostic spirituality” happens because they are atheist and being honest about their beliefs.
It is far from unlikely that someone who writes an anti-religion book and is an atheist would write the book from an atheist perspective rather than another anti-religion perspective. That choice is not so implausible that you need to explain the coincidence away by saying that that’s not his real reason and it must be status signalling instead.
You’re missing the forest for the trees. Obviously any one person could be writing for any reason at all. The question is what do successful atheist polemics have in common, and why.
Again, I’m curious if you see the pattern I’m pointing out in other areas? Do you think most popular political books are optimized to convert the undecided or the opposition? Or are atheists special?
Agreed with most of this, but...
Very few of the religious people I know attempt to frame themselves as smarter than atheists (nor as smarter than members of other religions). Rather, they attempt to frame themselves as more moral than atheists. (Although the constraints on discourse usually obligate them to do so very indirectly.)
That said, the facade of successful argument is admittedly crucial to avoid being framed as dumber than atheists. Which isn’t the same thing at all.
I agree with this, though I think there is a minority of religious people for whom feeling smarter than atheists actually is important.