That was a confounding factor so obvious that I thought it didn’t need to be mentioned. Its existence certainly doesn’t strengthen your case!
Of course it does: being high status (having a high IQ and a good education) makes you an atheist. So when norms are changed to benefit atheists they’re benefiting a high-status group of people. If atheist books are about making atheists higher status it’s about making high-status people have higher status.
It’s like if I wrote about how bespoke suits are awesome. Sure you could point to lots of people who make fun of bespoke suits (“you look like a dandy” or “sell-out!”) and suggest that rich educated people are the only people who can accept the status hit to wear them. But wearing a bespoke suit is a marker of high status groups. If you don’t have a great job in certain sectors and make a lot of money you don’t end up wearing one. It isn’t meaningful to try to think about the status effects of atheism and suit-wearing in isolation from the cultural environment in which they exist. Being an atheist is part of being part of the cognitive elite.
You’re asking us to believe that atheists would seriously consider writing books just to get people to adopt a more moderate tone in their religion, without advocating for atheism, just because that would be more effective, and that it took a monetary incentive to get them to change their minds?
I’m saying that atheist apologetics is more or less symmetrical to Christian apologetics in it’s function. They provide people with confidence in their worldview and bolster their status. As such, the market for books by atheists is driven by atheists just like the market for books by Christians is driven by Christians. If atheist writing and activism were actually about trying to reduce the social costs of religion they wouldn’t sound like Richard Dawkins and Chris Hitchens.
I’m not saying there is some conspiracy among atheist book publishers to keep people from being moderate. I’m saying the market reflects what people value: signalling intelligence and status, not an altruistic drive to help society by reducing the impact of religion. I’m not saying there is anything sinister at work. I’m certain atheists and Christians both think they are trying to improve the world: but really it’s mostly about signaling.
Of course it does: being high status (having a high IQ and a good education) makes you an atheist.
Whoa, you’re mucking around with the causality here.
Having high IQ and good education → high status;
same factors → atheist.
They share causes. One does not follow from the other.
On the publishing, you just said right there that the filter lies at the publisher level—not the author level. The more controversial, less useful books sell better. That I would agree with, but that’s not what you said earlier—you specifically addressed the authors’ motivations. Nothing you’ve said addresses that.
Neither of us even moved towards suggesting a conspiracy. Where did that come from?
On the publishing, you just said right there that the filter lies at the publisher level—not the author level. The more controversial, less useful books sell better. That I would agree with, but that’s not what you said earlier—you specifically addressed the authors’ motivations. Nothing you’ve said addresses that.
Authors respond to incentives like everyone else in the history of the world. But I was never talking about authors motivations: I was talking about the values illustrated by the atheist movement as can be seen from what the book market produces.
Neither of us even moved towards suggesting a conspiracy. Where did that come from?
I can’t understand what you disputable about my position so I was guessing at possible miscommunications.
“Outspoken atheists” is a much, much larger group than “atheist authors”, though authors are certainly a part of that group. But my argument is that the values of the former group are revealed in their book preferences. Obviously the case for any one author will be weaker- about as weak as the case for William Lane Craig not caring about converting people is (why can’t he just be telling the truth, works just as well for him).
Of course it does: being high status (having a high IQ and a good education) makes you an atheist. So when norms are changed to benefit atheists they’re benefiting a high-status group of people. If atheist books are about making atheists higher status it’s about making high-status people have higher status.
It’s like if I wrote about how bespoke suits are awesome. Sure you could point to lots of people who make fun of bespoke suits (“you look like a dandy” or “sell-out!”) and suggest that rich educated people are the only people who can accept the status hit to wear them. But wearing a bespoke suit is a marker of high status groups. If you don’t have a great job in certain sectors and make a lot of money you don’t end up wearing one. It isn’t meaningful to try to think about the status effects of atheism and suit-wearing in isolation from the cultural environment in which they exist. Being an atheist is part of being part of the cognitive elite.
I’m saying that atheist apologetics is more or less symmetrical to Christian apologetics in it’s function. They provide people with confidence in their worldview and bolster their status. As such, the market for books by atheists is driven by atheists just like the market for books by Christians is driven by Christians. If atheist writing and activism were actually about trying to reduce the social costs of religion they wouldn’t sound like Richard Dawkins and Chris Hitchens.
I’m not saying there is some conspiracy among atheist book publishers to keep people from being moderate. I’m saying the market reflects what people value: signalling intelligence and status, not an altruistic drive to help society by reducing the impact of religion. I’m not saying there is anything sinister at work. I’m certain atheists and Christians both think they are trying to improve the world: but really it’s mostly about signaling.
Whoa, you’re mucking around with the causality here.
Having high IQ and good education → high status;
same factors → atheist.
They share causes. One does not follow from the other.
On the publishing, you just said right there that the filter lies at the publisher level—not the author level. The more controversial, less useful books sell better. That I would agree with, but that’s not what you said earlier—you specifically addressed the authors’ motivations. Nothing you’ve said addresses that.
Neither of us even moved towards suggesting a conspiracy. Where did that come from?
Authors respond to incentives like everyone else in the history of the world. But I was never talking about authors motivations: I was talking about the values illustrated by the atheist movement as can be seen from what the book market produces.
I can’t understand what you disputable about my position so I was guessing at possible miscommunications.
vs
“Outspoken atheists” is a much, much larger group than “atheist authors”, though authors are certainly a part of that group. But my argument is that the values of the former group are revealed in their book preferences. Obviously the case for any one author will be weaker- about as weak as the case for William Lane Craig not caring about converting people is (why can’t he just be telling the truth, works just as well for him).