The difference here is connotations and having fuzzy boundaries, or a denotation of bad history. In this case, the connotations and denotations get sort of wrapped up. But it isn’t unreasonable to use a term because it has some positive connotations and specifically use a variant of that term to mean “the version with these positives and not these negatives”, e.g. “Third Wave Feminism” or something similar.
Actually, it is unreasonable. That’s pretty much precisely what I meant when I called it hypocrisy. “Give us the accolades [for things we didn’t do], but don’t give us any criticism [for things we also didn’t do, but this time because we didn’t do them].” Especially when you then go on to complain about how unfair it is to be painted in the same light as your intellectual forebears. Well, if it’s unfair of other people to regard you harshly for the actions of past feminists, it’s equally unfair for them to regard you positively for the actions of past feminists.
“Trying to have your cake and eat it too” I believe is the idiom generally used in these kinds of cases.
So, it may help to think of movements as sets of associated memes. In that context, it may make sense to say something like: “Instead of this version of movement A1, we’re going to have slightly different strain A2, which has the following additional basic memes and takes out the following. Since most of the good results of A1 have been due to the ideas we are leaving in, please continue with those positive associations.”
First, if you’re dealing with minds -capable- of breaking it up into memes and dealing with them individually, why do you need the memeplex? Aren’t you double-counting the positive associations?
Second, suppose some -completely different- movement comes along, and takes all the good memes from A1, and adds something -bad-; stereotypically, and putting “feminazi” to a more literal purpose, putting Jews in ovens (in a gender-neutral way, of course). Does it get to use the “positive associations” for the good memes of A1? Supposing the good memes of A1 were -good enough- to balance out the bad memes of this new movement, FN1, is FN1 on the whole a good thing, even if A1, in its time, already did all the good that the good memes of A1 could possibly do, and FN1 can only have a negative impact?
I don’t mean to draw literal parallels between FN1 and any real-world ideology—my point there is that your position on the matter seems to declare that certain memes represent unlimited caches of “goodness” that any memeplex can draw upon. A hostile memeplex is fully capable of using these positive associations as a defense mechanism against criticism. (I do hint at a real-world analogy there.)
First, if you’re dealing with minds -capable- of breaking it up into memes and dealing with them individually, why do you need the memeplex?
People deal with thoughts much more effectively as groups of associated thoughts. Similarly, movements work with groups of associated thoughts. The set of movements based on a single meme is pretty small.
It may help to remember that these are movements that are trying to be genuinely politically successful. Yes, a hostile or dangerous memeplex can use similar techniques, but that doesn’t make them intrinsically bad techniques (or for that matter any worse when one specific movement is using them.)
Actually, it is unreasonable. That’s pretty much precisely what I meant when I called it hypocrisy. “Give us the accolades [for things we didn’t do], but don’t give us any criticism [for things we also didn’t do, but this time because we didn’t do them].” Especially when you then go on to complain about how unfair it is to be painted in the same light as your intellectual forebears. Well, if it’s unfair of other people to regard you harshly for the actions of past feminists, it’s equally unfair for them to regard you positively for the actions of past feminists.
“Trying to have your cake and eat it too” I believe is the idiom generally used in these kinds of cases.
So, it may help to think of movements as sets of associated memes. In that context, it may make sense to say something like: “Instead of this version of movement A1, we’re going to have slightly different strain A2, which has the following additional basic memes and takes out the following. Since most of the good results of A1 have been due to the ideas we are leaving in, please continue with those positive associations.”
First, if you’re dealing with minds -capable- of breaking it up into memes and dealing with them individually, why do you need the memeplex? Aren’t you double-counting the positive associations?
Second, suppose some -completely different- movement comes along, and takes all the good memes from A1, and adds something -bad-; stereotypically, and putting “feminazi” to a more literal purpose, putting Jews in ovens (in a gender-neutral way, of course). Does it get to use the “positive associations” for the good memes of A1? Supposing the good memes of A1 were -good enough- to balance out the bad memes of this new movement, FN1, is FN1 on the whole a good thing, even if A1, in its time, already did all the good that the good memes of A1 could possibly do, and FN1 can only have a negative impact?
I don’t mean to draw literal parallels between FN1 and any real-world ideology—my point there is that your position on the matter seems to declare that certain memes represent unlimited caches of “goodness” that any memeplex can draw upon. A hostile memeplex is fully capable of using these positive associations as a defense mechanism against criticism. (I do hint at a real-world analogy there.)
People deal with thoughts much more effectively as groups of associated thoughts. Similarly, movements work with groups of associated thoughts. The set of movements based on a single meme is pretty small.
It may help to remember that these are movements that are trying to be genuinely politically successful. Yes, a hostile or dangerous memeplex can use similar techniques, but that doesn’t make them intrinsically bad techniques (or for that matter any worse when one specific movement is using them.)