My guess is that simulations of group evolution have already been done with agent based models with simple agents (relative to the both us and the robots they were modeling in the article the grandparent linked). I would guess the answer to your question is yes, and if someone has already done something with these simpler agent based models and made group evolution appear, then I would put a fairly high probability on that ‘yes.’
And if no one’s done it, that just makes me want to do it...
The eating each other’s babies thing is what you get when group selection doesn’t appear.
But yes, simulations of primitive agent models in this sort of context has been done to death. Even before they did experiments with actual living creatures!
I’ve done this kind of experiment myself—more or less as play or tinkering with my research tools. And not so much baby eating as replication suppression via within-group sabotage. (My Masters work was in nature inspired collective intelligence. So not trying to be simulation of reality but relevant in the opposite direction.)
What I found curious (or amusing) was that they were doing it with actual robots. Something about it just seems so cute. :)
The eating each other’s babies thing is what you get when group selection doesn’t appear.
Is that right? I may be misremembering, but I thought that the eating babies thing was a result of group selection. Eating babies arose when a group was under group-selection pressure to have a smaller population. The group complied with the pressure by having individuals within the group consume babies within the group. It was just that the individuals ate the babies of other individuals, thereby acting in accord with both the group-selection pressure and with an individual-selection pressure.
The eating each other’s babies thing is what you get when group selection doesn’t appear.
Ahh, that’s right.
What I found curious (or amusing) was that they were doing it with actual robots. Something about it just seems so cute. :)
I was disappointed when I read the article because it said they were doing it with models of the robots in a simulation. Real robots would have been infinitely cooler (and probably too impractical).
That’s closer, but unfortunately, that does nothing for my “coolness” sensors. I’m imagining a room filed with robots constantly reproducing and dieing, while interacting in interesting ways. I kind of want a room where this is going on in my house...
You assume implicitly a strict connection between cognition and evolution
That assumption follows pretty straightforwardly from evolution and some trivial observations. If I meet a human, I expect with high likelihood that they will have cognitive capabilities in the ballpark with mine. If I meet a lobster, tree, or rock, then I expect with high likelihood that they will not have such cognitive capabilities. I assume that relationship is based on the way the thing is constructed.
You’re assuming evolution (and natural selection) as a basis for shaping cognition with the robots, and then produce altruism.
Why not assume culture and program robots like that and call it evidence for cultural shaping which has nopthing to do with evolution?
My point is, you’re trying to prove cognitive evolution via...cognitive evolution while assuming evolution shapes cognition.
And to remind you, altruism is culturally shaped. See for example capitalism VS communism or the cult named radiofreedomain which advocates acting towards family as any other human being.
My point is, you’re trying to prove cognitive evolution via...cognitive evolution while assuming evolution shapes cognition
No. He’s saying “if evolution shapes cognition this is what we would expect. Oh, hey, look! We see that.”
Incidentally, I suspect that even you don’t think that evolution and cognition are completely unrelated. Different species are in different niches with different degrees of intelligence, and there’s a heavy correlation between what sort of niche a species is in and how intelligent it is. Thus for example, omnivores are generally more intelligent than other species of similar size.
Would it help to know you could generate altruism in robots just by putting them in a simulation of evolution?
If I put them in a simulation of group evolution do you think I could make them eat each other’s robot babies?
My guess is that simulations of group evolution have already been done with agent based models with simple agents (relative to the both us and the robots they were modeling in the article the grandparent linked). I would guess the answer to your question is yes, and if someone has already done something with these simpler agent based models and made group evolution appear, then I would put a fairly high probability on that ‘yes.’
And if no one’s done it, that just makes me want to do it...
The eating each other’s babies thing is what you get when group selection doesn’t appear.
But yes, simulations of primitive agent models in this sort of context has been done to death. Even before they did experiments with actual living creatures!
I’ve done this kind of experiment myself—more or less as play or tinkering with my research tools. And not so much baby eating as replication suppression via within-group sabotage. (My Masters work was in nature inspired collective intelligence. So not trying to be simulation of reality but relevant in the opposite direction.)
What I found curious (or amusing) was that they were doing it with actual robots. Something about it just seems so cute. :)
Is that right? I may be misremembering, but I thought that the eating babies thing was a result of group selection. Eating babies arose when a group was under group-selection pressure to have a smaller population. The group complied with the pressure by having individuals within the group consume babies within the group. It was just that the individuals ate the babies of other individuals, thereby acting in accord with both the group-selection pressure and with an individual-selection pressure.
Ahh, that’s right.
I was disappointed when I read the article because it said they were doing it with models of the robots in a simulation. Real robots would have been infinitely cooler (and probably too impractical).
They checked their simulation occasionally by using real robots with the same programs ever so often.
That’s closer, but unfortunately, that does nothing for my “coolness” sensors. I’m imagining a room filed with robots constantly reproducing and dieing, while interacting in interesting ways. I kind of want a room where this is going on in my house...
Now I’m imagining a residence rigged up with a robot-friendly Habitrail network.
YES! That’s definitely the sort of thing I’m thinking of!
You assume implicitly a strict connection between cognition and evolution, while that is what we are trying to prove.
That assumption follows pretty straightforwardly from evolution and some trivial observations. If I meet a human, I expect with high likelihood that they will have cognitive capabilities in the ballpark with mine. If I meet a lobster, tree, or rock, then I expect with high likelihood that they will not have such cognitive capabilities. I assume that relationship is based on the way the thing is constructed.
Or am I misunderstanding you?
You’re assuming evolution (and natural selection) as a basis for shaping cognition with the robots, and then produce altruism. Why not assume culture and program robots like that and call it evidence for cultural shaping which has nopthing to do with evolution?
My point is, you’re trying to prove cognitive evolution via...cognitive evolution while assuming evolution shapes cognition. And to remind you, altruism is culturally shaped. See for example capitalism VS communism or the cult named radiofreedomain which advocates acting towards family as any other human being.
No. He’s saying “if evolution shapes cognition this is what we would expect. Oh, hey, look! We see that.”
Incidentally, I suspect that even you don’t think that evolution and cognition are completely unrelated. Different species are in different niches with different degrees of intelligence, and there’s a heavy correlation between what sort of niche a species is in and how intelligent it is. Thus for example, omnivores are generally more intelligent than other species of similar size.