Much of the commentary here has turned into yet another debate about just how useless and unscientific evolutionary psychology is. (Notice how I cleverly signaled my own viewpoint about the debate. :) But do we really need to have this debate?
It occurs to me that Luke’s argument (about the misuse of intuitions by philosophers) really is independent of whether present-day evolutionary psychologists know what they are talking about. All Luke’s arguments, if I understand them, really need is that some intuitions are innate and derived from our evolutionary history, some are learned, and that some are generated on the spot by fallible cognitive processes. It really doesn’t matter whether an innate intuition arises as an evolutionary adaptation or an evolutionary accident—it still doesn’t provide a philosopher what he needs to ground his arguments.
If I am right here, and the validity of evolutionary psychology is irrelevant to Luke’s arguments, then lets move on. We can debate whether the validity of evolutionary psychology is irrelevant more generally at some other time.
As for your comment below about how I “seemed to suggest [evpsych] was the best thing since slided bread,” I’m not sure where you got such an idea. Evpsych is, as others have pointed out, full of holes. I pointed to some of those holes in my first footnote.
As for your comment below about how I “seemed to suggest [evpsych] was the best thing since slided bread,” I’m not sure where you got such an idea.
Other people who talk about evo psych think it is the best thing since sliced bread. You talk about evo psych. Therefore, you think evo psych is the best thing since sliced bread.
It is approximately the same intuition at play as that which you describe as ‘essentialism’ - and nearly ubiquitous when speaking with humans. If you say something about a topic or theory you can assume that you will be judged according to whatever other people who talk about the same topic, position or theory have said.
Other people who talk about evo psych think it is the best thing since sliced bread. You talk about evo psych. Therefore, you think evo psych is the best thing since sliced bread.
It is approximately the same intuition at play as that which you describe as ‘essentialism’
It’s also a perfectly valid piece of Bayesian reasoning.
It’s also a perfectly valid piece of Bayesian reasoning.
It isn’t if it is made as a logical deduction—as it was presented in the quote and also how it is frequently implemented in practice. The valid Bayesian reasoning would be a well calibrated calculation of the probability that the speaker happens to think those same thoughts given the remembered behaviours of other individuals of the same species. If only that was how humans behaved!
If I am right here, and the validity of evolutionary psychology is irrelevant to Luke’s arguments, then lets move on. We can debate whether the validity of evolutionary psychology is irrelevant more generally at some other time.
Supposing that the dispute is tangential to the topic of the article, I’ve seen many such disputes arise in comments without their digressiveness being raised as an objection. Is your concern that you think this threatens to overwhelm the main topic?
No, actually I’m not all that concerned. Mostly, I just wanted to point out just how low the stakes are in the often-heated arguments about evopsych. Luke wrote about evopsych, and seemed to suggest that it was the best thing since sliced bread, but it often seems that the people who praise evopsych (but don’t have a particular just-so-story in mind) really aren’t interested in the actual explanations that evopsych offers; instead they just are pleased to be able to stick pins into the inflated and self-congratulatory views of human nature which arise from non-evolutionary accounts of our origins.
they just are pleased to be able to stick pins into the inflated and self-congratulatory views of human nature which arise from non-evolutionary accounts of our origins.
That makes it sound as if the evopsych controversy is evolutionists versus creationists. My impression was that it’s mainly naturists versus nurturists.
You may be right, but if so, that paints a pretty dismal picture of the current state of psychology and anthropology. If you want to determine whether some human trait (a propensity toward alcoholism, say) is a result of nature or nurture, inventing competing just-so stories about the origin of that trait is a pretty poor way to decide between the hypotheses. And if you already know that a trait is innate, a disputed evopsych explanation brings nothing extra to the party.
And if you already know that a trait is innate, a disputed evopsych explanation brings nothing extra to the party.
What it does do is tell you what to bring to the next party and perhaps a hint as to what to do about the hangover the next day.
Improving our model of how the traits that know about evolved allows us to form better hypothesis about what other traits may be present and worth investigating. It could also suggest avenues for research in the area of physiology. Knowing why something exists can give some clues about how to go about fixing it when it is broken.
Plus… I like to know stuff! Causes intrigue me. Raw lists of correlations are dull.
Ok, but I don’t see how that is responsive to my point. Which was that you really ought to determine whether something is innate or learned before you begin generating hypotheses as to just how it became innate. That is, determine the proximate cause first, then go to work on other kinds of causation.
ETA: Btw, it is “group selection”, not “group evolution”.
ETA#2: Ah, if you didn’t realize that the ‘party’ in question is the nature/nurture debate, then you would think that you were being responsive. Kindly ignore the snarkiness.
Btw, it is “group selection”, not “group evolution”.
I had assumed that I made a slip of the fingers but looking back I don’t seem to have used that phrase at all. Was that me or someone else you were referring to?
in the first context it was ‘group selection’ that the researches intended to facilitate but not what actually occurred. The resulting outcome was instead individual selection being the dominant factor in how the groups evolved. This is to say that ‘group’ and ‘evolution’ are used correctly as independent terms, not as a phrase referring to a single construct.
The latter two should be ‘group selection’ so I corrected my follow up there, and the Matt quote with suitable edit-brackets to maintain the consistency in reply.
Much of the commentary here has turned into yet another debate about just how useless and unscientific evolutionary psychology is. (Notice how I cleverly signaled my own viewpoint about the debate. :) But do we really need to have this debate?
It occurs to me that Luke’s argument (about the misuse of intuitions by philosophers) really is independent of whether present-day evolutionary psychologists know what they are talking about. All Luke’s arguments, if I understand them, really need is that some intuitions are innate and derived from our evolutionary history, some are learned, and that some are generated on the spot by fallible cognitive processes. It really doesn’t matter whether an innate intuition arises as an evolutionary adaptation or an evolutionary accident—it still doesn’t provide a philosopher what he needs to ground his arguments.
If I am right here, and the validity of evolutionary psychology is irrelevant to Luke’s arguments, then lets move on. We can debate whether the validity of evolutionary psychology is irrelevant more generally at some other time.
I endorse all of this.
As for your comment below about how I “seemed to suggest [evpsych] was the best thing since slided bread,” I’m not sure where you got such an idea. Evpsych is, as others have pointed out, full of holes. I pointed to some of those holes in my first footnote.
Other people who talk about evo psych think it is the best thing since sliced bread. You talk about evo psych. Therefore, you think evo psych is the best thing since sliced bread.
It is approximately the same intuition at play as that which you describe as ‘essentialism’ - and nearly ubiquitous when speaking with humans. If you say something about a topic or theory you can assume that you will be judged according to whatever other people who talk about the same topic, position or theory have said.
It’s also a perfectly valid piece of Bayesian reasoning.
It isn’t if it is made as a logical deduction—as it was presented in the quote and also how it is frequently implemented in practice. The valid Bayesian reasoning would be a well calibrated calculation of the probability that the speaker happens to think those same thoughts given the remembered behaviours of other individuals of the same species. If only that was how humans behaved!
Supposing that the dispute is tangential to the topic of the article, I’ve seen many such disputes arise in comments without their digressiveness being raised as an objection. Is your concern that you think this threatens to overwhelm the main topic?
No, actually I’m not all that concerned. Mostly, I just wanted to point out just how low the stakes are in the often-heated arguments about evopsych. Luke wrote about evopsych, and seemed to suggest that it was the best thing since sliced bread, but it often seems that the people who praise evopsych (but don’t have a particular just-so-story in mind) really aren’t interested in the actual explanations that evopsych offers; instead they just are pleased to be able to stick pins into the inflated and self-congratulatory views of human nature which arise from non-evolutionary accounts of our origins.
That makes it sound as if the evopsych controversy is evolutionists versus creationists. My impression was that it’s mainly naturists versus nurturists.
You may be right, but if so, that paints a pretty dismal picture of the current state of psychology and anthropology. If you want to determine whether some human trait (a propensity toward alcoholism, say) is a result of nature or nurture, inventing competing just-so stories about the origin of that trait is a pretty poor way to decide between the hypotheses. And if you already know that a trait is innate, a disputed evopsych explanation brings nothing extra to the party.
What it does do is tell you what to bring to the next party and perhaps a hint as to what to do about the hangover the next day.
Improving our model of how the traits that know about evolved allows us to form better hypothesis about what other traits may be present and worth investigating. It could also suggest avenues for research in the area of physiology. Knowing why something exists can give some clues about how to go about fixing it when it is broken.
Plus… I like to know stuff! Causes intrigue me. Raw lists of correlations are dull.
Ok, but I don’t see how that is responsive to my point. Which was that you really ought to determine whether something is innate or learned before you begin generating hypotheses as to just how it became innate. That is, determine the proximate cause first, then go to work on other kinds of causation.
ETA: Btw, it is “group selection”, not “group evolution”.
ETA#2: Ah, if you didn’t realize that the ‘party’ in question is the nature/nurture debate, then you would think that you were being responsive. Kindly ignore the snarkiness.
I had assumed that I made a slip of the fingers but looking back I don’t seem to have used that phrase at all. Was that me or someone else you were referring to?
It was you and then Matt_Simpson and then you again. But it seems to have died out now.
Ahh, I see.
in the first context it was ‘group selection’ that the researches intended to facilitate but not what actually occurred. The resulting outcome was instead individual selection being the dominant factor in how the groups evolved. This is to say that ‘group’ and ‘evolution’ are used correctly as independent terms, not as a phrase referring to a single construct.
The latter two should be ‘group selection’ so I corrected my follow up there, and the Matt quote with suitable edit-brackets to maintain the consistency in reply.