That brings up another point. In the Philosopher’s Stone, Dumbledore enchants Erised so that only those who want to find the stone, but not use it, would be able to have it. If Dumbledore did in fact hide the stone in Hogwarts, I can’t see either Harry or Quirrell not wanting to use the stone.
Is it even possible for Dumbledore to hide anything in such a way that Harry can get at it, but Quirrell cannot? Harry’s major ideal difference—his war against death—isn’t even understood by Dumbledore. Not to mention that such a hiding place would have been constructed before Dumbledore even met Harry.
Random, low-confidence but possibly amusing prediction: in MoR the final obstacle of the third-floor corridor is called the Mirror of Vec, because it’s inscribed Noiti lovde talopart xet nere hocru oyt ube cafru oyt on wohsi.
I think you hit on a key point that several are missing—Dumbledore wouldn’t want HJEPV to have the stone any more than Quirrell (well, maybe a little more, but certainly less than nobody having it or even than handing it off to, say, some random Hufflepuff). In canon Harry didn’t just not want to use it, he didn’t want it used—that was his entire motivation for getting it. Rational Harry would, probably quite literally given enough time to think on the situation, kill to use it, and use it repeatedly. And Dumbledore knows this.
Canon Harry was, in fact, a person Dumbledore would be willing to loan the stone to if necessary. Rational Harry is not. The mirror actually represents a pretty effective screening process for who does and doesn’t fall in that category, especially combined with what in theory should have been a screening test to ensure you were a capable enough wizard to protect it and/or had the approval of several people he trusted in a more general capacity. In fact now that I say that, it suddenly seems plausible that the mirror wasn’t in any way tied to how it was hidden, and instead was just the trigger used for retrieving it. In which case, actually, a sufficiently powerful wizard with sufficient time could probably deconstruct the spell and take it by force, simply because no lock is perfect, which is why it still needed to be guarded in the first place and why stopping Quirrell was necessary.
The problem is, Dumbledore’s not going to tell Harry what the condition is for getting the stone. Why would he? He didn’t tell canon Quirrell, who was standing there trying to figure out why he couldn’t get it. He didn’t even tell canon Harry until after the fact. The mirror as a screening process works even better if the person being screened doesn’t know what it’s testing for, and thus can’t fake it.
And Harry would want to use the stone, make no mistake. The first thing he’d do with it is make himself immortal, to make sure no accident or fluke could stop him from having time to mass produce the immortality elixir. And he’d be using it for study anyways. But the most important part is that even if he is capable of precommitting and one-boxing, and even if that kind of trick fools the mirror, he’d first need to know that that was the condition necessary to obtain the stone. And you can probably count the number of people Dumbledore trusts with that information on one hand.
But the most important part is that even if he is capable of precommitting and one-boxing, and even if that kind of trick fools the mirror, he’d first need to know that that was the condition necessary to obtain the stone.
Given the author, Harry could also be told after getting the stone that he could only get it if he would not use it, and therefore he would not use it. And he’s already been cautioned against magical paradoxes.
Ok. Valid point. But after trying at a few minutes Harry might be able to understand Dumbledore enough to realize what the trick is. On the other hand, that might take far more empathy for the viewpoints of others than Harry generally has.
This begs the question, if Harry figure out the secret of the mirror, would he be able to construct an Occlumency proxy personality who didn’t want the stone?
Of course there is no answer to this question except “Whatever the author decides.”
The problem with Occlumency proxy personalities is that you have to be very careful, otherwise you’re subject to Amnesiac Dissonance. The smarter the proxy personality, the worse a problem this is.
That sounds like a reasonably good prediction about the way that plot path would go. It sounds at least partially analogous to one-boxing, and we know the author one-boxes.
In canon, why did Harry even want the stone? He could have just left it in there.
Indeed! I’ve always imagined the only explanation as sheer carelessness; MoR!Harry would have left it. (Ironically, since taking the stone goaded canon!Quirrelmort into touching Harry and thereby being destroyed, it was actually good that canon!Harry took the stone; but MorR!Harry doesn’t know that this would happen, at least not yet.)
(Ironically, since taking the stone goaded canon!Quirrelmort into touching Harry and thereby being destroyed, it was actually good that canon!Harry took the stone; but MorR!Harry doesn’t know that this would happen, at least not yet.)
In the books Harry’s success is essential due to the fact that every time Voldemort tries to kill him Harry is magically protected by something unforeseen. Voldemort isn’t clever enough to just kill him by non-magical means.
In MoR I imagine that Harry won’t have such convenient protections.
I’m pretty sure HJPEV could precommit to not using the stone himself, in order to use it on others.
I don’t think that would be enough. In canon, Quirrel wanted the stone to use on Voldemort, not on himself, and he couldn’t get it.The only way to get the stone in canon would be to want to have it to keep someone else from having it. HJPEV would want to use it on other people, therefore he can’t get it. Unless he could get an exception for wanting to give it to someone else, who would then be able to use it.
Sure, but how would he know to do so? Harry didn’t know about that rule in canon. He wouldn’t have the impulse to not use the stone on himself unless he knew that wanting to do so would prevent him from getting it.
That brings up another point. In the Philosopher’s Stone, Dumbledore enchants Erised so that only those who want to find the stone, but not use it, would be able to have it. If Dumbledore did in fact hide the stone in Hogwarts, I can’t see either Harry or Quirrell not wanting to use the stone.
Is it even possible for Dumbledore to hide anything in such a way that Harry can get at it, but Quirrell cannot? Harry’s major ideal difference—his war against death—isn’t even understood by Dumbledore. Not to mention that such a hiding place would have been constructed before Dumbledore even met Harry.
Random, low-confidence but possibly amusing prediction: in MoR the final obstacle of the third-floor corridor is called the Mirror of Vec, because it’s inscribed Noiti lovde talopart xet nere hocru oyt ube cafru oyt on wohsi.
It’s much more thematic, at least.
Great idea! I should do that.
… Have you had this sitting in a bookmark for four years so you could give him credit?
I’m not sure whether to be impressed or squee at the adorables. Probably both.
Either that or followed http://www.reddit.com/r/HPMOR/comments/2wwlgr/chapter_109/cousfer?context=1
You are utterly psychotic.
I think you hit on a key point that several are missing—Dumbledore wouldn’t want HJEPV to have the stone any more than Quirrell (well, maybe a little more, but certainly less than nobody having it or even than handing it off to, say, some random Hufflepuff). In canon Harry didn’t just not want to use it, he didn’t want it used—that was his entire motivation for getting it. Rational Harry would, probably quite literally given enough time to think on the situation, kill to use it, and use it repeatedly. And Dumbledore knows this.
Canon Harry was, in fact, a person Dumbledore would be willing to loan the stone to if necessary. Rational Harry is not. The mirror actually represents a pretty effective screening process for who does and doesn’t fall in that category, especially combined with what in theory should have been a screening test to ensure you were a capable enough wizard to protect it and/or had the approval of several people he trusted in a more general capacity. In fact now that I say that, it suddenly seems plausible that the mirror wasn’t in any way tied to how it was hidden, and instead was just the trigger used for retrieving it. In which case, actually, a sufficiently powerful wizard with sufficient time could probably deconstruct the spell and take it by force, simply because no lock is perfect, which is why it still needed to be guarded in the first place and why stopping Quirrell was necessary.
Loophole: Harry doesn’t want to use the stone, he wants to reverse engineer it, and mass produce more. So he can easily commit to not using the stone.
The problem is, Dumbledore’s not going to tell Harry what the condition is for getting the stone. Why would he? He didn’t tell canon Quirrell, who was standing there trying to figure out why he couldn’t get it. He didn’t even tell canon Harry until after the fact. The mirror as a screening process works even better if the person being screened doesn’t know what it’s testing for, and thus can’t fake it.
And Harry would want to use the stone, make no mistake. The first thing he’d do with it is make himself immortal, to make sure no accident or fluke could stop him from having time to mass produce the immortality elixir. And he’d be using it for study anyways. But the most important part is that even if he is capable of precommitting and one-boxing, and even if that kind of trick fools the mirror, he’d first need to know that that was the condition necessary to obtain the stone. And you can probably count the number of people Dumbledore trusts with that information on one hand.
Given the author, Harry could also be told after getting the stone that he could only get it if he would not use it, and therefore he would not use it. And he’s already been cautioned against magical paradoxes.
Ok. Valid point. But after trying at a few minutes Harry might be able to understand Dumbledore enough to realize what the trick is. On the other hand, that might take far more empathy for the viewpoints of others than Harry generally has.
This begs the question, if Harry figure out the secret of the mirror, would he be able to construct an Occlumency proxy personality who didn’t want the stone?
Of course there is no answer to this question except “Whatever the author decides.”
The problem with Occlumency proxy personalities is that you have to be very careful, otherwise you’re subject to Amnesiac Dissonance. The smarter the proxy personality, the worse a problem this is.
In canon, why did Harry even want the stone? He could have just left it in there.
I’m pretty sure HJPEV could precommit to not using the stone himself, in order to use it on others.
That sounds like a reasonably good prediction about the way that plot path would go. It sounds at least partially analogous to one-boxing, and we know the author one-boxes.
Indeed! I’ve always imagined the only explanation as sheer carelessness; MoR!Harry would have left it. (Ironically, since taking the stone goaded canon!Quirrelmort into touching Harry and thereby being destroyed, it was actually good that canon!Harry took the stone; but MorR!Harry doesn’t know that this would happen, at least not yet.)
In the books Harry’s success is essential due to the fact that every time Voldemort tries to kill him Harry is magically protected by something unforeseen. Voldemort isn’t clever enough to just kill him by non-magical means.
In MoR I imagine that Harry won’t have such convenient protections.
Well, you know how it would actually play out, given Canon!Voldemort
“Okay, my wand didn’t work against Harry, and a borrowed wand didn’t work against Harry. What I need to do is get the ultimate wand!”
“Master, it may be impertinent of me, but why don’t we just get you an AK-47 and let you shoot him? Or maybe a grenade launcher or something?”
“But then I won’t have defeated him with magic! My magic must be the mightiest!”
“Um, wait, if you need the boost of the ultimate wand, isn’t that already proof your magic on its own—”
“Avada kedavra! All right, anyone else have helpful suggestions?”
I don’t think that would be enough. In canon, Quirrel wanted the stone to use on Voldemort, not on himself, and he couldn’t get it.The only way to get the stone in canon would be to want to have it to keep someone else from having it. HJPEV would want to use it on other people, therefore he can’t get it. Unless he could get an exception for wanting to give it to someone else, who would then be able to use it.
Sure, but how would he know to do so? Harry didn’t know about that rule in canon. He wouldn’t have the impulse to not use the stone on himself unless he knew that wanting to do so would prevent him from getting it.
Which means that Dumbledore probably wouldn’t enchant it in such a way that Harry could get it.