> The goal of Buddhism seems to be to destroy what little sense of self one has.
very common belief, I think it is a misconception based on mixture of Buddhist memes with nondual traditions (that predate Buddhism, vedics etc.)
One of the goals is to clearly perceive what it is your mind is doing when it is ‘selfing.’ When clear perception is achieved some things tend to change just because it is obvious that the default way is slightly off. Believing that this then turns into a state equivalent to dreamless sleep or something like that means conflation between selfing and consciousness is happening, which seems perfectly reasonable from within the selfing frame. It’s also why ego death is called ego death. Feels like dying, like oblivion is lurking just on the other side of letting go. Selves think if you aren’t selfing you are dead. From the other side, it’s equally obvious that this isn’t true and that it is a belief which was causing suffering (for more than one reason).
One of the goals is to clearly perceive what it is your mind is doing
This is also the purpose of the Gurdjieff practice of self-observation. But what people find is strongly influenced, even determined, by what the teachers have told them that they will find. This despite that Buddhism and Gurdjieff both enjoin the student to verify these things for themselves. Neo-Buddhism seeks to free one from the illusion of self, after which, well, what? The Gurdjieff work says that after piercing the illusion that in one’s ordinary state one can do or be, more is possible, that there is a higher self that one can work towards.
neo-budhism is straightforwardly wrong. In the discourses a doctrine of no-self is called out as in error. Look at the 4 noble truths, the eightfold path, the twelve links of dependent origination, the law of karma, the 7 factors of enlightenment, etc etc, examine any actual doctrine of buddhism and no-self isn’t found as a tenet. Some non-dual practices (which involve the collapse of the selfing function) are advised as tools in various places.
Certainly what I have been calling neo-Buddhism (i.e. B as received in the West) differs from traditional Buddhism. (I have found David Chapman’s writings on this subject very informative.) But which, if either, is right? In the absence of any way to see inside each other’s minds, everyone must explore their own territory alone.
As far as I understand, “the (mistaken) belief in a permanent self or soul” is one of the Ten Fetters that one must break free of in order to achieve the stages of enlightenment.
> The goal of Buddhism seems to be to destroy what little sense of self one has.
very common belief, I think it is a misconception based on mixture of Buddhist memes with nondual traditions (that predate Buddhism, vedics etc.)
One of the goals is to clearly perceive what it is your mind is doing when it is ‘selfing.’ When clear perception is achieved some things tend to change just because it is obvious that the default way is slightly off. Believing that this then turns into a state equivalent to dreamless sleep or something like that means conflation between selfing and consciousness is happening, which seems perfectly reasonable from within the selfing frame. It’s also why ego death is called ego death. Feels like dying, like oblivion is lurking just on the other side of letting go. Selves think if you aren’t selfing you are dead. From the other side, it’s equally obvious that this isn’t true and that it is a belief which was causing suffering (for more than one reason).
This is also the purpose of the Gurdjieff practice of self-observation. But what people find is strongly influenced, even determined, by what the teachers have told them that they will find. This despite that Buddhism and Gurdjieff both enjoin the student to verify these things for themselves. Neo-Buddhism seeks to free one from the illusion of self, after which, well, what? The Gurdjieff work says that after piercing the illusion that in one’s ordinary state one can do or be, more is possible, that there is a higher self that one can work towards.
neo-budhism is straightforwardly wrong. In the discourses a doctrine of no-self is called out as in error. Look at the 4 noble truths, the eightfold path, the twelve links of dependent origination, the law of karma, the 7 factors of enlightenment, etc etc, examine any actual doctrine of buddhism and no-self isn’t found as a tenet. Some non-dual practices (which involve the collapse of the selfing function) are advised as tools in various places.
Certainly what I have been calling neo-Buddhism (i.e. B as received in the West) differs from traditional Buddhism. (I have found David Chapman’s writings on this subject very informative.) But which, if either, is right? In the absence of any way to see inside each other’s minds, everyone must explore their own territory alone.
As far as I understand, “the (mistaken) belief in a permanent self or soul” is one of the Ten Fetters that one must break free of in order to achieve the stages of enlightenment.
Right but that translation gets at what I mean, ‘the mistaken belief in a permanent soul’ doesn’t seem the same at all as ‘the self doesn’t exist’.