[Note: this was previously part of another comment on this post, but I decided it’s more appropriate as a separate comment.]
For a different take on “self”, “doing”, “consciousness”, “decision”, etc., I suggest the works of Gurdjieff, his students, and their students. His students are all now dead; we are in the generation of his spiritual grandchildren. This may be the meaning of the title of his magnum opus, “Beelzebub’s Tales To His Grandchildren”, a book I would disrecommend anyone from reading as their first introduction to the material, lest they prematurely dismiss it as lunatic ravings. Only throw it at the wall after you understand why he wrote it like that.
I have some slight acquaintance with his system through these works and have had some contact with Gurdjieff groups, online and offline, but I am not currently a member of one, nor have I any wish to boom The Work (as it is known in those circles) as the answer. But I think it makes an interesting contrast and corrective to the neo-Buddhism prevalent in rationalist circles. It is at least an answer.
According to Gurdjieff, man is almost universally asleep. What he takes to be waking consciousness is a state of mechanicity, a state in which he cannot truly do, cannot truly be. He uses the image of a horse-drawn cab, where there is a horse, and a carriage, and a cabbie, but no master sitting in the carriage to direct it where it should go. That absent master is the higher self that can, in principle, be attained to. But this can only be done through arduous work upon oneself. And since one cannot do, the ordinary person has no hope of ever doing such work, unless they happen to come in contact with someone further advanced than themselves, who can help them forwards, or if not that, a group of people of a similar level, who can work with each other until such time as they can contact a higher influence.
What this work consists of, you will actually find very little of in the most primary texts (Gurdjieff’s writings and those of Ouspensky and some of his other early followers). Exercises were given in his groups, but he always stressed that when he gave someone an exercise it was for the particular needs of that individual, and it would be useless for anyone else to merely imitate them, as if one were to notice a doctor prescribe someone a medicine and take the same thing oneself. There are published volumes of transcripts of some of his meetings, that include some of these instructions.
There are two initial practices for everyone, that are often mentioned but seldom described. They are called “self-remembering” and “self-observation”. As best as I can determine, self-remembering means what I have called awareness of one’s own presence. Always (or in as sustained a manner as one can manage) dividing one’s attention between whatever one is doing and one’s awareness of doing that. Self-observation is the act of observing one’s own workings (brought into one’s attention by self-remembering), and seeing thereby in detail one’s own mechanicity. The first evidence of mechanicity one may observe is how easily one fails to maintain self-remembering. There are other more specific exercises, such as maintaining awareness of your right foot for the next ten minutes, while continuing with other things at the same time. You can try that one right now, without even pausing from reading this.
These can be practiced on a meditation cushion, but should mainly be practised in daily life. Sitting in meditation, in G’s view, is useless, indeed harmful. It merely deadens the mind.
Akrasia is much spoken of in the rationalsphere: this is an example of mechanicity. For a real person, one who has developed a higher self, there is no akrasia. That person can do. The ordinary person cannot. He is pushed this way and that by every external nudge, unaware and asleep, a cab-driver who thinks he is the master of his cab but has no real direction.
The goal of Buddhism seems to be to destroy what little sense of self one has. The aim of Gurdjieff’s teaching is the opposite: to acquire a real self.
For references, the Wikipedia article on the Fourth Way seems a fair place to start looking.
The way I interpret your comment, is that Gurdjieff’s work involves practices associated with developing and strengthening one’s self and consciousness. From this description at least, it’s not obvious to me that no-self practices and Gurdjieff’s teaching would necessarily be in conflict. Rather their relationship sounds more like the relationship between different Buddhist yanas:
“Yana” means “vehicle.” A yana takes you from one place to another, spiritually. Which yana you should use depends on where you are and where you want to go. A submarine is a good way to get from shore to the bottom of the ocean. It is a bad way to get from Denver to Chicago. An airplane would be better. You can use an airplane to get to the bottom of the ocean, but I don’t recommend it.
In the same way, yanas are incompatible. They are all valid, but you can only use one at a time. Each yana has a few fundamental principles, which are entirely different.
When you read a Buddhist book or web page, or hear a Buddhist talk, it is critical to know which yana is acting as the framework of the discussion. A statement based on the principles of one yana often appears false or nonsensical if you try to understand it using the principles of another yana. This leads to serious confusion, or even yana shock. [...]
The Buddhist perspective is that the contradictory statements of the various yanas are not a problem, because they are methods, not ultimate truths.
Likewise, it might very well be that deconstructing the self and strengthening and constructing a stronger self are in some sense opposite processes, so that you cannot do both at the same time. But that doesn’t mean that you couldn’t interleave them, or first do one and then use that as a base for doing the other better.
For the sake of analogy, suppose that I’m interested in building an engine to a car. Problem is, I don’t know anything about car engines. So I start out by acquiring existing engines, taking them apart, and seeing how they work. After I have done that, I am in a better position to build an engine of my own.
I feel like self-related practices are similar. If I don’t understand how my self works and how it is constructed, then that will limit my ability to change it. But if I first take it apart, examine how it works, release existing constraints, etc., then I am in a much better position to afterwards reconstruct it and create a stronger self in its place.
Certainly my experience has been that there have been many aspects of myself which I have taken to be fixed—I’ve thought that “this is what I’m like and must be”. Later on I’ve done practices which made me realize that I don’t have to be that way. In this respect, it feels like noticing those aspects of me which are not self, help me better choose what is my true self—because I am no longer constrained by contingent factors that I took to be essential.
While I am not terribly familiar with Buddhist tantra, David Chapman’s writings about it give me the impression that the relationship between no-self practices and tantric practices has a similar relationship, with no-self -type practices being considered a prerequisite for tantric ones. First you do practices aimed at understanding the ways in which the self is constructed; then when you understand this, you are liberated from an overly narrow view of what you need to be, and can more flexibly reshape yourself and your relation to others.
> The goal of Buddhism seems to be to destroy what little sense of self one has.
very common belief, I think it is a misconception based on mixture of Buddhist memes with nondual traditions (that predate Buddhism, vedics etc.)
One of the goals is to clearly perceive what it is your mind is doing when it is ‘selfing.’ When clear perception is achieved some things tend to change just because it is obvious that the default way is slightly off. Believing that this then turns into a state equivalent to dreamless sleep or something like that means conflation between selfing and consciousness is happening, which seems perfectly reasonable from within the selfing frame. It’s also why ego death is called ego death. Feels like dying, like oblivion is lurking just on the other side of letting go. Selves think if you aren’t selfing you are dead. From the other side, it’s equally obvious that this isn’t true and that it is a belief which was causing suffering (for more than one reason).
One of the goals is to clearly perceive what it is your mind is doing
This is also the purpose of the Gurdjieff practice of self-observation. But what people find is strongly influenced, even determined, by what the teachers have told them that they will find. This despite that Buddhism and Gurdjieff both enjoin the student to verify these things for themselves. Neo-Buddhism seeks to free one from the illusion of self, after which, well, what? The Gurdjieff work says that after piercing the illusion that in one’s ordinary state one can do or be, more is possible, that there is a higher self that one can work towards.
neo-budhism is straightforwardly wrong. In the discourses a doctrine of no-self is called out as in error. Look at the 4 noble truths, the eightfold path, the twelve links of dependent origination, the law of karma, the 7 factors of enlightenment, etc etc, examine any actual doctrine of buddhism and no-self isn’t found as a tenet. Some non-dual practices (which involve the collapse of the selfing function) are advised as tools in various places.
Certainly what I have been calling neo-Buddhism (i.e. B as received in the West) differs from traditional Buddhism. (I have found David Chapman’s writings on this subject very informative.) But which, if either, is right? In the absence of any way to see inside each other’s minds, everyone must explore their own territory alone.
As far as I understand, “the (mistaken) belief in a permanent self or soul” is one of the Ten Fetters that one must break free of in order to achieve the stages of enlightenment.
[Note: this was previously part of another comment on this post, but I decided it’s more appropriate as a separate comment.]
For a different take on “self”, “doing”, “consciousness”, “decision”, etc., I suggest the works of Gurdjieff, his students, and their students. His students are all now dead; we are in the generation of his spiritual grandchildren. This may be the meaning of the title of his magnum opus, “Beelzebub’s Tales To His Grandchildren”, a book I would disrecommend anyone from reading as their first introduction to the material, lest they prematurely dismiss it as lunatic ravings. Only throw it at the wall after you understand why he wrote it like that.
I have some slight acquaintance with his system through these works and have had some contact with Gurdjieff groups, online and offline, but I am not currently a member of one, nor have I any wish to boom The Work (as it is known in those circles) as the answer. But I think it makes an interesting contrast and corrective to the neo-Buddhism prevalent in rationalist circles. It is at least an answer.
According to Gurdjieff, man is almost universally asleep. What he takes to be waking consciousness is a state of mechanicity, a state in which he cannot truly do, cannot truly be. He uses the image of a horse-drawn cab, where there is a horse, and a carriage, and a cabbie, but no master sitting in the carriage to direct it where it should go. That absent master is the higher self that can, in principle, be attained to. But this can only be done through arduous work upon oneself. And since one cannot do, the ordinary person has no hope of ever doing such work, unless they happen to come in contact with someone further advanced than themselves, who can help them forwards, or if not that, a group of people of a similar level, who can work with each other until such time as they can contact a higher influence.
What this work consists of, you will actually find very little of in the most primary texts (Gurdjieff’s writings and those of Ouspensky and some of his other early followers). Exercises were given in his groups, but he always stressed that when he gave someone an exercise it was for the particular needs of that individual, and it would be useless for anyone else to merely imitate them, as if one were to notice a doctor prescribe someone a medicine and take the same thing oneself. There are published volumes of transcripts of some of his meetings, that include some of these instructions.
There are two initial practices for everyone, that are often mentioned but seldom described. They are called “self-remembering” and “self-observation”. As best as I can determine, self-remembering means what I have called awareness of one’s own presence. Always (or in as sustained a manner as one can manage) dividing one’s attention between whatever one is doing and one’s awareness of doing that. Self-observation is the act of observing one’s own workings (brought into one’s attention by self-remembering), and seeing thereby in detail one’s own mechanicity. The first evidence of mechanicity one may observe is how easily one fails to maintain self-remembering. There are other more specific exercises, such as maintaining awareness of your right foot for the next ten minutes, while continuing with other things at the same time. You can try that one right now, without even pausing from reading this.
These can be practiced on a meditation cushion, but should mainly be practised in daily life. Sitting in meditation, in G’s view, is useless, indeed harmful. It merely deadens the mind.
Akrasia is much spoken of in the rationalsphere: this is an example of mechanicity. For a real person, one who has developed a higher self, there is no akrasia. That person can do. The ordinary person cannot. He is pushed this way and that by every external nudge, unaware and asleep, a cab-driver who thinks he is the master of his cab but has no real direction.
The goal of Buddhism seems to be to destroy what little sense of self one has. The aim of Gurdjieff’s teaching is the opposite: to acquire a real self.
For references, the Wikipedia article on the Fourth Way seems a fair place to start looking.
The way I interpret your comment, is that Gurdjieff’s work involves practices associated with developing and strengthening one’s self and consciousness. From this description at least, it’s not obvious to me that no-self practices and Gurdjieff’s teaching would necessarily be in conflict. Rather their relationship sounds more like the relationship between different Buddhist yanas:
Likewise, it might very well be that deconstructing the self and strengthening and constructing a stronger self are in some sense opposite processes, so that you cannot do both at the same time. But that doesn’t mean that you couldn’t interleave them, or first do one and then use that as a base for doing the other better.
For the sake of analogy, suppose that I’m interested in building an engine to a car. Problem is, I don’t know anything about car engines. So I start out by acquiring existing engines, taking them apart, and seeing how they work. After I have done that, I am in a better position to build an engine of my own.
I feel like self-related practices are similar. If I don’t understand how my self works and how it is constructed, then that will limit my ability to change it. But if I first take it apart, examine how it works, release existing constraints, etc., then I am in a much better position to afterwards reconstruct it and create a stronger self in its place.
Certainly my experience has been that there have been many aspects of myself which I have taken to be fixed—I’ve thought that “this is what I’m like and must be”. Later on I’ve done practices which made me realize that I don’t have to be that way. In this respect, it feels like noticing those aspects of me which are not self, help me better choose what is my true self—because I am no longer constrained by contingent factors that I took to be essential.
While I am not terribly familiar with Buddhist tantra, David Chapman’s writings about it give me the impression that the relationship between no-self practices and tantric practices has a similar relationship, with no-self -type practices being considered a prerequisite for tantric ones. First you do practices aimed at understanding the ways in which the self is constructed; then when you understand this, you are liberated from an overly narrow view of what you need to be, and can more flexibly reshape yourself and your relation to others.
> The goal of Buddhism seems to be to destroy what little sense of self one has.
very common belief, I think it is a misconception based on mixture of Buddhist memes with nondual traditions (that predate Buddhism, vedics etc.)
One of the goals is to clearly perceive what it is your mind is doing when it is ‘selfing.’ When clear perception is achieved some things tend to change just because it is obvious that the default way is slightly off. Believing that this then turns into a state equivalent to dreamless sleep or something like that means conflation between selfing and consciousness is happening, which seems perfectly reasonable from within the selfing frame. It’s also why ego death is called ego death. Feels like dying, like oblivion is lurking just on the other side of letting go. Selves think if you aren’t selfing you are dead. From the other side, it’s equally obvious that this isn’t true and that it is a belief which was causing suffering (for more than one reason).
This is also the purpose of the Gurdjieff practice of self-observation. But what people find is strongly influenced, even determined, by what the teachers have told them that they will find. This despite that Buddhism and Gurdjieff both enjoin the student to verify these things for themselves. Neo-Buddhism seeks to free one from the illusion of self, after which, well, what? The Gurdjieff work says that after piercing the illusion that in one’s ordinary state one can do or be, more is possible, that there is a higher self that one can work towards.
neo-budhism is straightforwardly wrong. In the discourses a doctrine of no-self is called out as in error. Look at the 4 noble truths, the eightfold path, the twelve links of dependent origination, the law of karma, the 7 factors of enlightenment, etc etc, examine any actual doctrine of buddhism and no-self isn’t found as a tenet. Some non-dual practices (which involve the collapse of the selfing function) are advised as tools in various places.
Certainly what I have been calling neo-Buddhism (i.e. B as received in the West) differs from traditional Buddhism. (I have found David Chapman’s writings on this subject very informative.) But which, if either, is right? In the absence of any way to see inside each other’s minds, everyone must explore their own territory alone.
As far as I understand, “the (mistaken) belief in a permanent self or soul” is one of the Ten Fetters that one must break free of in order to achieve the stages of enlightenment.
Right but that translation gets at what I mean, ‘the mistaken belief in a permanent soul’ doesn’t seem the same at all as ‘the self doesn’t exist’.