Whether or not this result is correct, society is definitely shaming the wrong people: some perfectly healthy people (e.g. young women) are shamed for not being as skinny as the models on TV, and not much is being done to prevent morbid obesity in certain people (esp. middle-aged and older) who don’t even try to lose weight.
(Edited to replace “adult men” with “middle-aged and older” and “eat less” with “lose weight”.)
Yeah, and so it looks more and more that (as terribly impolite it might be to suggest in some circles on the Internet) we need much higher standards of “political correctness” and a way stronger“call-out culture” in some areas.
Most activists are neither saints nor superhumanly rational, of course—but at least in certain matters the general public might need to get out of their way and comply with “cultural engineering” projects, where those genuinely appear to be vital low-hanging fruit obscured by public denial and conformism.
I’m pretty sure that call out culture needs some work. It’s sort of feasible when there’s agreement about what’s privileged and what isn’t, but I’d respect it more if there were peace between transgendered people and feminists.
From a place of general agreement with you, looking for thoughts on how to go forward:
Are second-wave feminists more transphobic than a random member of the population? Or do you think second-wave hypocrisy is evidence that the whole second-wave argument is flawed?
Because as skeptical as I often am of third-wave as actually practiced, they are particularly good (compared to society as a whole) on transgendered folks, right?
I don’t think the problem is especially about transphobia, I think it’s about a harsh style of enforcing whatever changes people from that subculture want to make. They want to believe—and try to enforce—that the harshness shouldn’t matter, but it does.
I think that “calling out” types can be extremely harsh and unpleasant—I agree with NancyLebovitz there. However, I don’t get what she meant by the problems between feminist and trans people leading her to respect it less.
I mean that call out culture presents itself as an optimal way for people with different levels of privilege to live with each other, and I think that intractable problem between second wave feminists and transpeople is evidence that there are problems with call out culture, even if .what second wave feminists have been doing is technically before the era of call out culture.
There used to be a really good analysis of the problems with call out culture at ozyfrantz.com, but that blog is no longer available.
I see. Personally, I’m struggling with the proper application of the Tone Argument. In archetypal form:
A: I don’t like social expression X (e.g. scorn at transgendered). B: You might have a point, but I’m turn off by your tone. A: I don’t think my tone is your true rejection.
But in practice, this can devolve into: B: Social expression X isn’t so bad / might be justified. A: B deserves to be fired / assaulted / murdered. (e.g. a mindkilled response) B: Overreacting much?
which is clearly problematic on A’s part. Separating the not-true-rejection error by B from the mindkilled problem of A is very important. But the worry is that focusing our attention on that question diverts from the substantive issue of describing what social expressions are problematic and identifying them when they occur (to try to reduce their frequency in the future).
The fact that second wave feminists exercised cisgender privilege to be hurtful to the transgendered seems totally distinction from “Tone Argument” dynamic.
I’m pretty sure “trying to eat less” is exactly the wrong thing to do. Calorie restriction just triggers the starvation response which makes things worse in the long run.
Physics is still relevant. The only way to lose weight (outside of surgery) is to spend more energy than you take in. The problem, of course, is that your energy intake and your energy output are functions of each other plus a lot of other things besides (including what’s on your mind).
I still think that for most people (aka with an uninformative prior) the advice of “Eat less, move more” is a good starting point. Given more data, adjust as needed.
I’m pretty sure “trying to eat less” is exactly the wrong thing to do.
I’m pretty sure “Force feeding yourself as much fat as you can keep down with the aid of anti-emetics, taking glucose intravenously while injecting insulin, estrogen and testosterone and taking a β2 antagonist” is closer to “exactly the wrong thing to do”.
Whether or not this result is correct, society is definitely shaming the wrong people: some perfectly healthy people (e.g. young women) are shamed for not being as skinny as the models on TV, and not much is being done to prevent morbid obesity in certain people (esp. middle-aged and older) who don’t even try to lose weight.
(Edited to replace “adult men” with “middle-aged and older” and “eat less” with “lose weight”.)
Yeah, and so it looks more and more that (as terribly impolite it might be to suggest in some circles on the Internet) we need much higher standards of “political correctness” and a way stronger “call-out culture” in some areas.
Most activists are neither saints nor superhumanly rational, of course—but at least in certain matters the general public might need to get out of their way and comply with “cultural engineering” projects, where those genuinely appear to be vital low-hanging fruit obscured by public denial and conformism.
A social justice style which includes recruiting imperfect allies rather than attacking them.
I’m pretty sure that call out culture needs some work. It’s sort of feasible when there’s agreement about what’s privileged and what isn’t, but I’d respect it more if there were peace between transgendered people and feminists.
From a place of general agreement with you, looking for thoughts on how to go forward:
Are second-wave feminists more transphobic than a random member of the population? Or do you think second-wave hypocrisy is evidence that the whole second-wave argument is flawed?
Because as skeptical as I often am of third-wave as actually practiced, they are particularly good (compared to society as a whole) on transgendered folks, right?
I don’t think the problem is especially about transphobia, I think it’s about a harsh style of enforcing whatever changes people from that subculture want to make. They want to believe—and try to enforce—that the harshness shouldn’t matter, but it does.
This may offer some clues about a way forward.
IME “call out culture” feminists are very anti-transphobia. Second wave feminists aren’t so interested in getting people to check their privilege.
If that’s true, then I don’t understand NancyLebovitz’s criticism of “call out culture” or the relevance of her statement to Multiheaded’s point.
I think that “calling out” types can be extremely harsh and unpleasant—I agree with NancyLebovitz there. However, I don’t get what she meant by the problems between feminist and trans people leading her to respect it less.
I mean that call out culture presents itself as an optimal way for people with different levels of privilege to live with each other, and I think that intractable problem between second wave feminists and transpeople is evidence that there are problems with call out culture, even if .what second wave feminists have been doing is technically before the era of call out culture.
There used to be a really good analysis of the problems with call out culture at ozyfrantz.com, but that blog is no longer available.
I see. Personally, I’m struggling with the proper application of the Tone Argument. In archetypal form:
A: I don’t like social expression X (e.g. scorn at transgendered).
B: You might have a point, but I’m turn off by your tone.
A: I don’t think my tone is your true rejection.
But in practice, this can devolve into:
B: Social expression X isn’t so bad / might be justified.
A: B deserves to be fired / assaulted / murdered. (e.g. a mindkilled response)
B: Overreacting much?
which is clearly problematic on A’s part. Separating the not-true-rejection error by B from the mindkilled problem of A is very important. But the worry is that focusing our attention on that question diverts from the substantive issue of describing what social expressions are problematic and identifying them when they occur (to try to reduce their frequency in the future).
The fact that second wave feminists exercised cisgender privilege to be hurtful to the transgendered seems totally distinction from “Tone Argument” dynamic.
http://web.archive.org/web/20130412201542/http://ozyfrantz.com/2012/12/29/certain-propositions-concerning-callout-culture-part-one/
Thanks very much.
I wanted all three of the major articles, but that was easy enough to find from your link.
http://web.archive.org/web/20130412200333/http://ozyfrantz.com/category/callout-culture/
I’m pretty sure “trying to eat less” is exactly the wrong thing to do. Calorie restriction just triggers the starvation response which makes things worse in the long run.
Change what you eat, not how much.
Physics is still relevant. The only way to lose weight (outside of surgery) is to spend more energy than you take in. The problem, of course, is that your energy intake and your energy output are functions of each other plus a lot of other things besides (including what’s on your mind).
I still think that for most people (aka with an uninformative prior) the advice of “Eat less, move more” is a good starting point. Given more data, adjust as needed.
It’s not that unusual for people to regain what they lost plus more after a failed diet.
I’m pretty sure “Force feeding yourself as much fat as you can keep down with the aid of anti-emetics, taking glucose intravenously while injecting insulin, estrogen and testosterone and taking a β2 antagonist” is closer to “exactly the wrong thing to do”.
I’ve replaced “eat less” with “lose weight” because I don’t want to go into this, but see Lumifer’s reply.