I really could have used a description to help me get the gist of the culture here. I understand that they’re gathered around concepts like rationalism, self-improvement and philanthropy, but that didn’t give me the practical information I want or tell me anything about how they were going to behave. My observations might be especially useful because I am new, so I still have all of that beginner’s disorientation fresh in mind and available to talk about. I offer myself as a case study. These might strike you like: “Yeah! Users are having these problems!′ and you’ll know I pointed out something good, or, they may be my own unique experiences which are completely useless to the rest of the group. Obviously, you have to use your own judgment and it may take a survey, but the benefit of this would be more unique content, higher quality content, and less frustration for all users and readers of LessWrong. Us new people do not want to annoy you. And you do not want to be annoyed. It’s really a win-win if we get a crash course in the top 10 ways to not annoy you. If you put that in our faces so we find it right away, we will probably accommodate you, and everyone will be happier.
For instance, they’re a lot more serious here than in a lot of places on the internet. The atmosphere isn’t casual. You can’t make casual remarks—I see jokes here and there, but otherwise, if you’re not putting effort into saying something well-reasoned, unique and high-quality, they’re all over you. And your jokes better be good, apparently—I’ve seen some fail pretty hard.
Part of the reason I joined is because a lot of the discussions I have with people and a lot of what’s out there is boring. People are often saying the same old thing. They’re making the same old mistakes. They’re not thorough, and they’re very casual. In a lot of ways, this is not really like an internet forum—it has a lot of important things in common with a peer-reviewed journal. You have to read it really carefully: The details count, and people smack you down if you don’t seem to notice them. The messages in posts and articles may, at first SEEM like the same old thing, but quite often, they’re not—there’s some intelligent twist to it that makes all the difference.
All of that is easy to gloss over when your brain has been lulled into “read boring stuff” mode by some earlier part of your day. People are saying things that at first may seem like the same old mistakes, but they’re not. Both myself and other posters here frequently make these kinds of errors—the error of not reading carefully enough, assuming a more common meaning in place of the actual meaning, failing to observe intentional details, mistaking something for a common mistake when it is not one. This is frustrating for everyone, but if there were some introduction to LessWrong that made new users aware that this is a more detail-oriented space full of different and easy to misinterpret ideas, that may encourage them to approach each other’s writing with more lucidity and, and highlight how what they’re saying is different.
A lot of people here are very intelligent, but seem to require what I would consider to be a condescending degree of pointing out the obvious. I thought it was just me but here’s an example of Eliezer doing that:
“If wagering those chips and losing seems like an unbearable possibility to you, then go do something else. Seriously. Because you can lose.”
In hindsight, I realize that pointing out the obvious to a bunch of mostly intelligent people seems to be required not because they need to hear it, but because they need to see that the poster gets it. In other words, the people here seem unusually likely to assume that you’re a moron and so you have to be careful to avoid that. Maybe this is because, like me, they’re sick of the same old stuff and it makes them too quick to skim what you’re saying, misinterpret it for something more common, and judge. Their brains are in “detecting the morons” mode from an earlier part of their day. Maybe they’re simply more outspoken when their moron radars beep. Maybe they’ve had it up to here with morons and now they’re touchy. Whatever it is, it would help to know that people will assume you’re a moron if you don’t frequently refer to the obvious. It’s not clear, otherwise, that a group of mostly intelligent people won’t feel condescended to by it, and in fact apparently needs to see you frequently refer to the obvious.
The culture here is very, very honest, very confrontational when it comes to errors in reasoning. That’s one of my top five reasons for joining. But it feels a bit tentative, a bit ambiguous. People also react with hurt feelings. I think, when it comes to that, we have to choose. I know what I choose—If the truth is brutal, hurt my feelings, I want to know. I’ll be responsible for cleaning up whatever mess it makes of my emotions. I think that’s the only way rationalists can go. I would like to see a description that demands honesty—not just mentions “yeah people are more honest here” but DEMANDS honesty. I’ll show you what I mean:
I am not an employee of Amazon but a friend showed me their values page and I thought it was inspiring: It states that their employees (referred to as “leaders”) are ”...obligated to respectfully challenge decisions when they disagree, even when doing so is uncomfortable...” Amazon Leadership Principles
I want to see something just as bold, just as tough as part of the joining agreement. I’m not talking about hiding it in some website policy or rules page everyone ignores. I want to see it right by the join button:
“By pressing this join button, I agree that I am here to improve myself. I understand that my flawed reasoning will be pointed out. My feelings about that will be my own responsibility. I agree also that I will point out flawed reasoning when I see it, no matter whose it is.”
In regards to honesty versus manners, the way that people SEEM to be doing it here is “Let reality be brutal if it’s needed for you to be clear, but don’t make the statement of reality brutal.” Most people seem to be good at this, but it’s a common problem for people to have no idea how to balance manners with honesty. There are other ways, also, for less bold people, like the one that I use in IRL environments: Hint first (sensitive people get it, and you spare their dignity) then be clear (most people get it) then be brutally honest (slightly dense people get it). If I have to resort to the 2x4, then I really have to decide whether enlightening this person is going to be one of those battles I choose or one of those battles I do not choose.
There are core areas of knowledge that seem to be part of the culture. For instance, AI and cryogenics. I have a sense that these things are common knowledge among LessWrong folks. New people aren’t necessarily going to guess what these are. I’ve seen people being voted down for not knowing a topic well enough when it comes to these subjects that seem to be core interests of the group. The site encourages them to read the sequences, but that’s a HUGE investment. Most people are not going to read everything relevant before joining. If newcomers had a limited list of short selections to help them get out of the “newbie” zone on the group’s main topics, that would be beneficial to both the older members (who won’t have to vote them down / hold their hand / wade through their comments) as well as the newbies (who will feel less confused).
As an initial investment on joining day, I think one page that explains the top ten ways new and old users get frustrated with one another is a reasonable investment for joining day and I think five or ten articles of <=3 pages each on core subjects would be reasonable as an investment in their first weeks of joining—though you could go about this in two ways. You could do that AND aim to hook them with new excerpts from the most fascinating articles. Use that list I was talking about in the “How to get their attention” comment from the web statistics about which articles get the most unique visitors staying longest, and make the front page cycle through those. (Note: Considering how this will interact with search engines is important. I explained that in “Home Page vs Search Engines”)
Put it in our faces:
If a new user orientation page is made, this should be easy to find. I’d link it in multiple places—About page, FAQ page, and register page.
Hint first (sensitive people get it, and you spare their dignity) then be clear (most people get it) then be brutally honest (slightly dense people get it). If I have to resort to the 2x4, then I really have to decide whether enlightening this person is going to be one of those battles I choose or one of those battles I do not choose.
This approach is fairly good. It would help if you gave examples. Also, while their is a benefit to public disagreement, sending criticism as a pm can help the recipient save face. I usually do this when pointing out grammatical errors, like the fact that I used their rather than there. It might be worth mentioning this in the orientation.
“By pressing this join button, I agree that I am here to improve myself. I understand that my flawed reasoning will be pointed out. My feelings about that will be my own responsibility. I agree also that I will point out flawed reasoning when I see it, no matter whose it is.”
I like the idea, but am not sure about the wording, you might want to check out the related concept of Crocker’s rules
There are core areas of knowledge that seem to be part of the culture. For instance, AI and cryogenics. I have a sense that these things are common knowledge among LessWrong folks. New people aren’t necessarily going to guess what these are. I’ve seen people being voted down for not knowing a topic well enough when it comes to these subjects that seem to be core interests of the group. The site encourages them to read the sequences, but that’s a HUGE investment. Most people are not going to read everything relevant before joining. If newcomers had a limited list of short selections to help them get out of the “newbie” zone on the group’s main topics, that would be beneficial to both the older members (who won’t have to vote them down / hold their hand / wade through their comments) as well as the newbies (who will feel less confused).
Academian created a short list of the most important sequence posts here. I realize that it is fifty posts, not five to ten, which brings me to the next point I’d like the newb guide to address. While we don’t require everybody to read the sequences, this is still a site that has a core corpus longer than the Lord of the Rings, has added much more content since then and often assumes at least a passing familiarity with several outside writers like Paul Grahram and Robin Hanson. Asking a question or two is one thing, but anyone who wants to get seriously involved needs to be willing to do a large amount of background reading. Flowing from that, the orientation might be a good place to introduce the concept of disagreement levels.
User Orientation Needed
I really could have used a description to help me get the gist of the culture here. I understand that they’re gathered around concepts like rationalism, self-improvement and philanthropy, but that didn’t give me the practical information I want or tell me anything about how they were going to behave. My observations might be especially useful because I am new, so I still have all of that beginner’s disorientation fresh in mind and available to talk about. I offer myself as a case study. These might strike you like: “Yeah! Users are having these problems!′ and you’ll know I pointed out something good, or, they may be my own unique experiences which are completely useless to the rest of the group. Obviously, you have to use your own judgment and it may take a survey, but the benefit of this would be more unique content, higher quality content, and less frustration for all users and readers of LessWrong. Us new people do not want to annoy you. And you do not want to be annoyed. It’s really a win-win if we get a crash course in the top 10 ways to not annoy you. If you put that in our faces so we find it right away, we will probably accommodate you, and everyone will be happier.
For instance, they’re a lot more serious here than in a lot of places on the internet. The atmosphere isn’t casual. You can’t make casual remarks—I see jokes here and there, but otherwise, if you’re not putting effort into saying something well-reasoned, unique and high-quality, they’re all over you. And your jokes better be good, apparently—I’ve seen some fail pretty hard.
Part of the reason I joined is because a lot of the discussions I have with people and a lot of what’s out there is boring. People are often saying the same old thing. They’re making the same old mistakes. They’re not thorough, and they’re very casual. In a lot of ways, this is not really like an internet forum—it has a lot of important things in common with a peer-reviewed journal. You have to read it really carefully: The details count, and people smack you down if you don’t seem to notice them. The messages in posts and articles may, at first SEEM like the same old thing, but quite often, they’re not—there’s some intelligent twist to it that makes all the difference.
All of that is easy to gloss over when your brain has been lulled into “read boring stuff” mode by some earlier part of your day. People are saying things that at first may seem like the same old mistakes, but they’re not. Both myself and other posters here frequently make these kinds of errors—the error of not reading carefully enough, assuming a more common meaning in place of the actual meaning, failing to observe intentional details, mistaking something for a common mistake when it is not one. This is frustrating for everyone, but if there were some introduction to LessWrong that made new users aware that this is a more detail-oriented space full of different and easy to misinterpret ideas, that may encourage them to approach each other’s writing with more lucidity and, and highlight how what they’re saying is different.
A lot of people here are very intelligent, but seem to require what I would consider to be a condescending degree of pointing out the obvious. I thought it was just me but here’s an example of Eliezer doing that:
On Doing The Impossible
In hindsight, I realize that pointing out the obvious to a bunch of mostly intelligent people seems to be required not because they need to hear it, but because they need to see that the poster gets it. In other words, the people here seem unusually likely to assume that you’re a moron and so you have to be careful to avoid that. Maybe this is because, like me, they’re sick of the same old stuff and it makes them too quick to skim what you’re saying, misinterpret it for something more common, and judge. Their brains are in “detecting the morons” mode from an earlier part of their day. Maybe they’re simply more outspoken when their moron radars beep. Maybe they’ve had it up to here with morons and now they’re touchy. Whatever it is, it would help to know that people will assume you’re a moron if you don’t frequently refer to the obvious. It’s not clear, otherwise, that a group of mostly intelligent people won’t feel condescended to by it, and in fact apparently needs to see you frequently refer to the obvious.
The culture here is very, very honest, very confrontational when it comes to errors in reasoning. That’s one of my top five reasons for joining. But it feels a bit tentative, a bit ambiguous. People also react with hurt feelings. I think, when it comes to that, we have to choose. I know what I choose—If the truth is brutal, hurt my feelings, I want to know. I’ll be responsible for cleaning up whatever mess it makes of my emotions. I think that’s the only way rationalists can go. I would like to see a description that demands honesty—not just mentions “yeah people are more honest here” but DEMANDS honesty. I’ll show you what I mean:
I am not an employee of Amazon but a friend showed me their values page and I thought it was inspiring: It states that their employees (referred to as “leaders”) are ”...obligated to respectfully challenge decisions when they disagree, even when doing so is uncomfortable...” Amazon Leadership Principles
I want to see something just as bold, just as tough as part of the joining agreement. I’m not talking about hiding it in some website policy or rules page everyone ignores. I want to see it right by the join button:
“By pressing this join button, I agree that I am here to improve myself. I understand that my flawed reasoning will be pointed out. My feelings about that will be my own responsibility. I agree also that I will point out flawed reasoning when I see it, no matter whose it is.”
In regards to honesty versus manners, the way that people SEEM to be doing it here is “Let reality be brutal if it’s needed for you to be clear, but don’t make the statement of reality brutal.” Most people seem to be good at this, but it’s a common problem for people to have no idea how to balance manners with honesty. There are other ways, also, for less bold people, like the one that I use in IRL environments: Hint first (sensitive people get it, and you spare their dignity) then be clear (most people get it) then be brutally honest (slightly dense people get it). If I have to resort to the 2x4, then I really have to decide whether enlightening this person is going to be one of those battles I choose or one of those battles I do not choose.
There are core areas of knowledge that seem to be part of the culture. For instance, AI and cryogenics. I have a sense that these things are common knowledge among LessWrong folks. New people aren’t necessarily going to guess what these are. I’ve seen people being voted down for not knowing a topic well enough when it comes to these subjects that seem to be core interests of the group. The site encourages them to read the sequences, but that’s a HUGE investment. Most people are not going to read everything relevant before joining. If newcomers had a limited list of short selections to help them get out of the “newbie” zone on the group’s main topics, that would be beneficial to both the older members (who won’t have to vote them down / hold their hand / wade through their comments) as well as the newbies (who will feel less confused).
As an initial investment on joining day, I think one page that explains the top ten ways new and old users get frustrated with one another is a reasonable investment for joining day and I think five or ten articles of <=3 pages each on core subjects would be reasonable as an investment in their first weeks of joining—though you could go about this in two ways. You could do that AND aim to hook them with new excerpts from the most fascinating articles. Use that list I was talking about in the “How to get their attention” comment from the web statistics about which articles get the most unique visitors staying longest, and make the front page cycle through those. (Note: Considering how this will interact with search engines is important. I explained that in “Home Page vs Search Engines”)
Put it in our faces:
If a new user orientation page is made, this should be easy to find. I’d link it in multiple places—About page, FAQ page, and register page.
Naww, that’s pretty much just Eliezer. He has a theory about how you have to aim low when explaining stuff: http://lesswrong.com/lw/kh/explainers_shoot_high_aim_low/
If you want to write some new FAQ questions and answers to account for what you’re describing, I’ll definitely take a look at them!
This approach is fairly good. It would help if you gave examples. Also, while their is a benefit to public disagreement, sending criticism as a pm can help the recipient save face. I usually do this when pointing out grammatical errors, like the fact that I used their rather than there. It might be worth mentioning this in the orientation.
Including a very abbreviated version of the Jargon file would probably be a good idea. At minimum I’d like for it to include what we mean be rationality. Preferably with a quick discussion of [http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Hollywood_rationality[(http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Hollywood_rationality), and that the word is “rationality” not “rationalism” which usually referrers to a completely different philosophy.
I like the idea, but am not sure about the wording, you might want to check out the related concept of Crocker’s rules
Academian created a short list of the most important sequence posts here. I realize that it is fifty posts, not five to ten, which brings me to the next point I’d like the newb guide to address. While we don’t require everybody to read the sequences, this is still a site that has a core corpus longer than the Lord of the Rings, has added much more content since then and often assumes at least a passing familiarity with several outside writers like Paul Grahram and Robin Hanson. Asking a question or two is one thing, but anyone who wants to get seriously involved needs to be willing to do a large amount of background reading. Flowing from that, the orientation might be a good place to introduce the concept of disagreement levels.