It sounds very much like you’re saying that no one would choose to be part of a minority culture if they weren’t forced into it by non-acceptance. If that is what you meant, wouldn’t that imply that destroying that minority culture is better than forcing people to continue being part of it?
Stolen generation isn’t relevant here since it wasn’t reciprocal—the children were taken, not replaced by white children who were then raised in Aboriginal commmunities.
It sounds very much like you’re saying that no one would choose to be part of a minority culture if they weren’t forced into it by non-acceptance.
Not really, just that for some minorities implementation of such a policy would produce non-acceptance rates would result in genocidal (by the UN definition of the legal terms rather than colloquial use) levels of assimilation. It does a community little good if only 0.5 or 1 or 1.5 child per generation would choose to remain part of it.
If that is what you meant, wouldn’t that imply that destroying that minority culture is better than forcing people to continue being part of it?
Good point, but what if the minority culture’s values differ on this? Much like I prefer to exist than my carbon being used for the construction of a perfect orgasmium human. Members of minority cultures might prefer to put costs on each other to prevent them from leaving the community.
Also it would really upset groups like say Haredim Jews.
This is kind of a pet peeve of mine. “Genocide” has really strong negative moral valence in most people’s minds because the last time somebody tried it, it involved killing millions of people. Throwing it around in situations that don’t involve death seems… not inaccurate per se, but still disingenuous.
I use it in the technical legal sense and made that explicit too.
Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. (Article 2 CPPCG)
People are really inconsistent however in colloquial usage and moral reasoning. I partially agree with your objection. Communist crimes are basically whitewashed because “Mao killed Chinese and he was Chinese so it wasn’t genocide so Hitler is still worse”. Isn’t a life a life? Shouldn’t whatever the term one uses, the negative feeling be the same?
for some minorities implementation of such a policy would produce non-acceptance rates would result in genocidal levels of assimilation
I’m with Alicorn on this one: if your members don’t want to be in your community, sucks to be your community.
what if the minority culture’s values differ on this?
Maybe they should make more of an effort to convince their members that their community is worth being a part of rather than using mechanisms like shunning and mainstream stigmatism to enforce membership.
it would really upset groups like say Haredim Jews
Somehow I can’t bring myself to be bothered by this
Good point, but what if the minority culture’s values differ on this?
For some reason my brain decided to recast this question as though the minority culture were a corporation selling a product at a price (non-full-inclusion in majority culture translated into money). If people don’t want to buy it, sucks to be you! I don’t care if your values say they ought to or if it will make you sad. Change product or market product but do not force its purchase on anyone.
You do realize we are talking about retention of children raised in a culture right? Orgasmium cults and brainwashing indoctrinators would tend to out compete most others by such measures. A cult worshipping a baslisk that hacks your brain into absolute loyalty would also win out.
Optimizing for allure will not optimize for welfare. At least not under these mechanisms of “choice”. It also means our value sets can be out competed by really convincing paperclippers.
From the perspective of many traditional cultures Westerners may as well be Supper Happy people.
The problem with ‘orgasmium cults’ is, they have a hard time producing anything valuable enough to outsiders to be able to maintain economic power proportionate to their nominal population. Eventually it’s just a heap of functionally insensate larvae starving themselves into irrelevance.
The above holds for either. Erratio’s formulation was:
It sounds very much like you’re saying that no one would choose to be part of a minority culture if they weren’t forced into it by non-acceptance.
I think it would be trivial by a superinteligence to design a culture that no one would choose any other culture over, yet wouldn’t be a very pleasant place to live. And if superinteligence can do this, why could something like this arise due to memetic evolution? Religious and ideological memeplexes are already examples of weaker but dangerous beasts of this kind.
I don’t ever modify them after reading someone else’s statements. It is just that I often post and then reread my comment and find a point is in need of clarification and immediately hit edit and start fixing it. Most of the time no one notices since responses come 5 or 15 or 200 minutes later.
But if you’d like to keep this more real-timeish, I have no problem from with waiting longer before hitting “comment” and then leaving them unchanged. Sorry for any inconvenience. In any case weren’t the above two comments last modified before you posted yours?
It sounds very much like you’re saying that no one would choose to be part of a minority culture if they weren’t forced into it by non-acceptance. If that is what you meant, wouldn’t that imply that destroying that minority culture is better than forcing people to continue being part of it?
Stolen generation isn’t relevant here since it wasn’t reciprocal—the children were taken, not replaced by white children who were then raised in Aboriginal commmunities.
Not really, just that for some minorities implementation of such a policy would produce non-acceptance rates would result in genocidal (by the UN definition of the legal terms rather than colloquial use) levels of assimilation. It does a community little good if only 0.5 or 1 or 1.5 child per generation would choose to remain part of it.
Good point, but what if the minority culture’s values differ on this? Much like I prefer to exist than my carbon being used for the construction of a perfect orgasmium human. Members of minority cultures might prefer to put costs on each other to prevent them from leaving the community.
Also it would really upset groups like say Haredim Jews.
This is kind of a pet peeve of mine. “Genocide” has really strong negative moral valence in most people’s minds because the last time somebody tried it, it involved killing millions of people. Throwing it around in situations that don’t involve death seems… not inaccurate per se, but still disingenuous.
I use it in the technical legal sense and made that explicit too.
People are really inconsistent however in colloquial usage and moral reasoning. I partially agree with your objection. Communist crimes are basically whitewashed because “Mao killed Chinese and he was Chinese so it wasn’t genocide so Hitler is still worse”. Isn’t a life a life? Shouldn’t whatever the term one uses, the negative feeling be the same?
I’m with Alicorn on this one: if your members don’t want to be in your community, sucks to be your community.
Maybe they should make more of an effort to convince their members that their community is worth being a part of rather than using mechanisms like shunning and mainstream stigmatism to enforce membership.
Somehow I can’t bring myself to be bothered by this
Haredim can be a real pain in the ass when they decide they want to be.
For some reason my brain decided to recast this question as though the minority culture were a corporation selling a product at a price (non-full-inclusion in majority culture translated into money). If people don’t want to buy it, sucks to be you! I don’t care if your values say they ought to or if it will make you sad. Change product or market product but do not force its purchase on anyone.
You do realize we are talking about retention of children raised in a culture right? Orgasmium cults and brainwashing indoctrinators would tend to out compete most others by such measures. A cult worshipping a baslisk that hacks your brain into absolute loyalty would also win out.
Optimizing for allure will not optimize for welfare. At least not under these mechanisms of “choice”. It also means our value sets can be out competed by really convincing paperclippers.
From the perspective of many traditional cultures Westerners may as well be Supper Happy people.
The problem with ‘orgasmium cults’ is, they have a hard time producing anything valuable enough to outsiders to be able to maintain economic power proportionate to their nominal population. Eventually it’s just a heap of functionally insensate larvae starving themselves into irrelevance.
I thought we’d drifted away from that particular spin on the scenario as of erratio’s comment.
The above holds for either. Erratio’s formulation was:
I think it would be trivial by a superinteligence to design a culture that no one would choose any other culture over, yet wouldn’t be a very pleasant place to live. And if superinteligence can do this, why could something like this arise due to memetic evolution? Religious and ideological memeplexes are already examples of weaker but dangerous beasts of this kind.
You keep editing your comments after you post them and then my replies look really poorly targeted.
I don’t ever modify them after reading someone else’s statements. It is just that I often post and then reread my comment and find a point is in need of clarification and immediately hit edit and start fixing it. Most of the time no one notices since responses come 5 or 15 or 200 minutes later.
But if you’d like to keep this more real-timeish, I have no problem from with waiting longer before hitting “comment” and then leaving them unchanged. Sorry for any inconvenience. In any case weren’t the above two comments last modified before you posted yours?
Before I posted mine, maybe—I didn’t check—but I was on a static page referring to an unedited parent when I wrote my replies.
Ok from now on I won’t modify comments after posting for this debate.
Edit: Starting after this one!
Or you can just include edits as “Edited to add: X” Then it’s perfectly clear, and you can edit freely. You just can’t prove that’s all you did.
From what kind of a position are people choosing to buy? The veil of ignorance? Lol.
You can’t choose to buy or not buy a spot somewhere in mind-space without already being somewhere in mind-space.
A sufficiently dedicated group could just keep childbirthing in-house rather than trusting hospitals.
It seems very likley that that would be illegal in such a society.