1) The preceding is not a quote, really, it’s just a sentence I made up and want to analyze.
2) I think the sentence has more than an element of truth to it. While also being self-referential. This can be amusing in poetry, I guess, but I’m getting pretty sick of it right now.
3) I do not know what to do about this. I do not know how we even manage to talk to each other at all some times (!). Shades of meaning. Tones of voice running all out of sync to spoken words in order to hint at things that are better left unsaid.
4) I mean it’s not like ambiguity isn’t useful. Consider this delightfully clever piece of rhetoric due to Eliezer that I bumbled into while trying to find this OpenThreadGuy thing. [Meta: Where’s the FAQ on things like this? (edit: I mean the OpenThread. Damn ambiguity! Although a FAQ of FAQs could be handy too.) ]
Just because research shows that human beings are insane, does not mean that turning power over to a government composed of human beings will cause it to fix the problem.
5) Help.
Edit: PS: No. I haven’t read the sequences yet. Yes, English is my native language, I just don’t feel like it is.
! Edit: I think that we communicate by something cognitive that resembles Bayesian updating. Something effectively like a particle system. I have no evidence for this. When I want to be especially clear, I run a “simulation” in my head of someone else reading my writing, and think of all the places their particles might go wrong.
Edit: Braces added as an experiment below. At first I interspersed them above, but this way you can tell me if you understood me accurately the first time.
English is a viciously ambiguous language.
1) The preceding is not a quote, really, it’s just a sentence I made up and want to analyze.
2) I think the sentence has more than an element of truth to it {understatement}. While also being self-referential {deliberate fragment; sometimes extra periods are helpful, I think}. This can be amusing in poetry, I guess, but I’m getting pretty sick of it right now. {garden variety ambiguous; “this” refers to self-referential and ambiguity itself, with intended emphasis on the latter, though here, I think the ambiguity was a subconscious resonance than any deliberate poetry}
3) I do not know what to do about this. {plain honest truth, but plenty of elliptical bits and a dangling this pointer left to the reader as an excercise} I do not know how we even manage to talk to each other at all some times {deliberate exaggeration, !}. Shades of meaning. {ellipsis} Tones of voice running all out of sync to spoken words in order to hint at things that are better left unsaid. {imprecise; deal with it.}
4) I mean it’s not like ambiguity isn’t useful. Consider this delightfully clever piece of rhetoric due to Eliezer that I bumbled into while trying to find this OpenThreadGuy thing. [Meta: Where’s the FAQ on things like this? {accidentally ambiguous pronoun} (edit: I mean the OpenThread. Damn ambiguity! Although a FAQ of FAQs could be handy too.) ]
Just because research shows that human beings are insane, does not mean that turning power over to a government composed of human beings will cause it to fix the problem.
5) Help.
Edit^2: I notice that I never really analyzed the lead sentence. Briefly:
English: I mean this noun not “The people of England.”
Is: Oh don’t get me started. The range of metaphor! When I hear “is,” I hope that it means “is a” or “is about to” and only go back if these fail. Ah. I guess you cross off the “people of England” case here if you even gave it much prior mass.
a: Meh.
viciously: Here we go! I mean a WHOLE mess of these ALL at “once.” I’m not ready to go through and figure out exactly which. Ok fine. Wow! I think I mean ALL of them literally. I’m surprised. I didn’t realize I “meant” all of them.
ambiguous: gosh is this ambiguous too? I dunno. I guess so
language: probably ambiguous by itself, but now you know for sure what I meant by English, well “for sure”.
Edit^3: I shouldn’t have to run a huge simulation just to speak or to listen! {motivated thinking} expletive!
I’m sure this has been discussed before. Thanks in advance.
What sort of help do you want?
Or, put a different way: how would you recognize something as helpful, if such help were provided?
Excellent question! I didn’t even think of that kind of ambiguity. I like the way you phrased it and then clarified it. Already helpful!
I consider a link to something really good (and preferably brief) helpful. Or the right sentence.
I would recognize something as helpful if I perceived that it would change my future behavior so that I communicate better. Better means: with less effort, more persuasive, not feeling left behind in a conversation, more accurate empathy. Heck, asking the right question, as you just did. Although I’m probably too “Socratic” for most people already.
Since this is too lofty, here’s a limited goal. I would like to know how to communicate with like-minded folks on this site as well as possible. E.g. I didn’t know the “friends” option existed, or what it does, or that I wasn’t seeing all posts until I finally clicked on preferences.
I feel that there’s too much unsaid wisdom here, or rather that it’s spread out to the winds, so an effort to fix that would be great. (or at least I haven’t found the succinct/definitive source and no I haven’t read the sequences. Frankly I’ve been put off by wordiness and colloquially. I’ll get over it eventually, I guess, because I’m picking at it already.)
Also, in the rant, I noticed ambiguity as an asset and a liability and as a CPU sink. Are there alternatives that I don’t know about for coping with this? And/or comments on my brace elaboration?
By the way, started reading Cialdini’s Influence and I judge it as helpful, though not for English per se yet. Honestly, i found HPMOR more amusing than helpful, but yes, it got me here, I suppose, so points!
Edit^2: I think that this line is my most immediate pain point:
I shouldn’t have to run a huge simulation just to speak or to listen! {motivated thinking}
Anything that helps me figure out work arounds or accept the necessity is great!
PS I just noticed that your question anticipated and resolved the answer “I don’t know.” Very slick. But let me say “I don’t know” too.
Regarding your most immediate pain point… if there’s a way around that, I don’t know it. Humans are complicated, understanding natural language requires a huge amount of pre-existing knowledge, and understanding it well enough to carry on a conversation requires building some sort of model of my interlocutor. I recognize that this is a more difficult task for some people than others, and that this is essentially unfair.
Well if there’s not a work around, there are coping strategies, surely. Here’s what I do {idealization}:
Ignore most of it
Wait until something catches my attention. Something worth thinking about or responding to
Try to think what to say and hope/dream-on that there’s a way to fit it into the conversation by the time I figured it out.
(Let’s see, how can I reverse what you did to me, on you?)
TheOtherDave, is coping with the complexity of communication a problem for you? If so, how do you deal with it? What would you recognize as a step forward on this point? And where do we go / who do we go to to get help on this?
It’s not a problem for me, in that I enjoy it. Communication is a complex puzzle, and I succeed at it regularly enough to find it rewarding. But I acknowledge that that approach isn’t available to everyone.
That said, I think it’s a skill worth mastering.
As for how to master it… yeah, that’s a great question. The best technique I know of is to make explicit predictions (typically private ones) of other people’s reactions, and when they are wrong, pay a lot of attention to exactly how they were wrong… what that tells me about what I thought was true about that person that turns out not to be true.
I am beginning to Embrace Constructive ambiguity, and think that I might enjoy Communication after all.
My current Stylistic plan: capitalize the letters of words where you intend the reader to notice a potential for ambiguity that you intend constructively.
the capitals above are in draft status; written by instinct. I like that I and My happen to come out capital, though.
e.g.
english is a Viciously ambiguous language.
… would get the emphasis more right. (and I notice that starting sentences clearly is going to be a bit of a problem)
wow. how do I give more Attention to your advice? it’s great! I have not learned the explicit predictions part yet. I’m still just reacting. My cognition has been so overloaded I never had time for that and I haven’t figured out where to fit it in. help? all I can predict right now is that what you right will be helpful.
PS have I mentioned how much I admire Your Pseudonym?
edit: hah! I wrote “right”. I never Grokked Puns. (although some were clear enough I did find them funny, of course; and I’ve been sensitive to Irony for Forever)
edit^2: {the pun was unintentional{conciously}, but awesome}
PPS I sent a link to my dad about this. I think he’ll get it. beyond that? also, notation matters (link?) but I’m sure you know that in your own way. so much happening by Accident these days. It seems to be coming from Communication. neat-o.
You might also want to know that when you reply to yourself, as you do above, you get notifications but I don’t. (I just happened to notice this in Recent Comments.)
I find lists useful for keeping track of things I want to get to later but don’t have time/capacity for now.
In principle, I endorse the idea of typographic markers for particular meta-level emphasis—what in speech I would use tone of speech for—but in practice I find it distracts me more than it helps, and I pattern-match it to crankishness. I sometimes use italics for the purpose, but I find even that more and more distasteful as time goes by. This all seems arbitrary and even unfair of me, but there it is anyway.
Re: pseudonym… thanks.
Two lines of text without an intervening blank line will get parsed as a single line, unless you put two blank spaces at the end of the first line.
1) The preceding is not a quote, really, it’s just a sentence I made up and want to analyze.
2) I think the sentence has more than an element of truth to it. While also being self-referential. This can be amusing in poetry, I guess, but I’m getting pretty sick of it right now.
3) I do not know what to do about this. I do not know how we even manage to talk to each other at all some times (!). Shades of meaning. Tones of voice running all out of sync to spoken words in order to hint at things that are better left unsaid.
4) I mean it’s not like ambiguity isn’t useful. Consider this delightfully clever piece of rhetoric due to Eliezer that I bumbled into while trying to find this OpenThreadGuy thing. [Meta: Where’s the FAQ on things like this? (edit: I mean the OpenThread. Damn ambiguity! Although a FAQ of FAQs could be handy too.) ]
5) Help.
Edit: PS: No. I haven’t read the sequences yet. Yes, English is my native language, I just don’t feel like it is.
! Edit: I think that we communicate by something cognitive that resembles Bayesian updating. Something effectively like a particle system. I have no evidence for this. When I want to be especially clear, I run a “simulation” in my head of someone else reading my writing, and think of all the places their particles might go wrong.
Edit: Braces added as an experiment below. At first I interspersed them above, but this way you can tell me if you understood me accurately the first time.
1) The preceding is not a quote, really, it’s just a sentence I made up and want to analyze.
2) I think the sentence has more than an element of truth to it {understatement}. While also being self-referential {deliberate fragment; sometimes extra periods are helpful, I think}. This can be amusing in poetry, I guess, but I’m getting pretty sick of it right now. {garden variety ambiguous; “this” refers to self-referential and ambiguity itself, with intended emphasis on the latter, though here, I think the ambiguity was a subconscious resonance than any deliberate poetry}
3) I do not know what to do about this. {plain honest truth, but plenty of elliptical bits and a dangling this pointer left to the reader as an excercise} I do not know how we even manage to talk to each other at all some times {deliberate exaggeration, !}. Shades of meaning. {ellipsis} Tones of voice running all out of sync to spoken words in order to hint at things that are better left unsaid. {imprecise; deal with it.}
4) I mean it’s not like ambiguity isn’t useful. Consider this delightfully clever piece of rhetoric due to Eliezer that I bumbled into while trying to find this OpenThreadGuy thing. [Meta: Where’s the FAQ on things like this? {accidentally ambiguous pronoun} (edit: I mean the OpenThread. Damn ambiguity! Although a FAQ of FAQs could be handy too.) ]
5) Help.
Edit^2: I notice that I never really analyzed the lead sentence. Briefly:
English: I mean this noun not “The people of England.”
Is: Oh don’t get me started. The range of metaphor! When I hear “is,” I hope that it means “is a” or “is about to” and only go back if these fail. Ah. I guess you cross off the “people of England” case here if you even gave it much prior mass.
a: Meh.
viciously: Here we go! I mean a WHOLE mess of these ALL at “once.” I’m not ready to go through and figure out exactly which. Ok fine. Wow! I think I mean ALL of them literally. I’m surprised. I didn’t realize I “meant” all of them.
ambiguous: gosh is this ambiguous too? I dunno. I guess so
language: probably ambiguous by itself, but now you know for sure what I meant by English, well “for sure”.
Edit^3: I shouldn’t have to run a huge simulation just to speak or to listen! {motivated thinking} expletive!
I’m sure this has been discussed before. Thanks in advance.
What sort of help do you want?
Or, put a different way: how would you recognize something as helpful, if such help were provided?
Excellent question! I didn’t even think of that kind of ambiguity. I like the way you phrased it and then clarified it. Already helpful!
I consider a link to something really good (and preferably brief) helpful. Or the right sentence.
I would recognize something as helpful if I perceived that it would change my future behavior so that I communicate better. Better means: with less effort, more persuasive, not feeling left behind in a conversation, more accurate empathy. Heck, asking the right question, as you just did. Although I’m probably too “Socratic” for most people already.
Since this is too lofty, here’s a limited goal. I would like to know how to communicate with like-minded folks on this site as well as possible. E.g. I didn’t know the “friends” option existed, or what it does, or that I wasn’t seeing all posts until I finally clicked on preferences.
I feel that there’s too much unsaid wisdom here, or rather that it’s spread out to the winds, so an effort to fix that would be great. (or at least I haven’t found the succinct/definitive source and no I haven’t read the sequences. Frankly I’ve been put off by wordiness and colloquially. I’ll get over it eventually, I guess, because I’m picking at it already.)
Also, in the rant, I noticed ambiguity as an asset and a liability and as a CPU sink. Are there alternatives that I don’t know about for coping with this? And/or comments on my brace elaboration?
By the way, started reading Cialdini’s Influence and I judge it as helpful, though not for English per se yet. Honestly, i found HPMOR more amusing than helpful, but yes, it got me here, I suppose, so points!
Edit^2: I think that this line is my most immediate pain point:
Anything that helps me figure out work arounds or accept the necessity is great!
PS I just noticed that your question anticipated and resolved the answer “I don’t know.” Very slick. But let me say “I don’t know” too.
Regarding your most immediate pain point… if there’s a way around that, I don’t know it. Humans are complicated, understanding natural language requires a huge amount of pre-existing knowledge, and understanding it well enough to carry on a conversation requires building some sort of model of my interlocutor. I recognize that this is a more difficult task for some people than others, and that this is essentially unfair.
Well if there’s not a work around, there are coping strategies, surely. Here’s what I do {idealization}:
Ignore most of it
Wait until something catches my attention. Something worth thinking about or responding to
Try to think what to say and hope/dream-on that there’s a way to fit it into the conversation by the time I figured it out.
(Let’s see, how can I reverse what you did to me, on you?)
It’s not a problem for me, in that I enjoy it. Communication is a complex puzzle, and I succeed at it regularly enough to find it rewarding. But I acknowledge that that approach isn’t available to everyone.
That said, I think it’s a skill worth mastering.
As for how to master it… yeah, that’s a great question. The best technique I know of is to make explicit predictions (typically private ones) of other people’s reactions, and when they are wrong, pay a lot of attention to exactly how they were wrong… what that tells me about what I thought was true about that person that turns out not to be true.
Good advice. Thanks!
Edit: Yes, I am one of those look at the floor types. I’m trying to break that habit. Some improvement, maybe.
I am beginning to Embrace Constructive ambiguity, and think that I might enjoy Communication after all.
My current Stylistic plan: capitalize the letters of words where you intend the reader to notice a potential for ambiguity that you intend constructively.
the capitals above are in draft status; written by instinct. I like that I and My happen to come out capital, though.
e.g.
… would get the emphasis more right. (and I notice that starting sentences clearly is going to be a bit of a problem)
wow. how do I give more Attention to your advice? it’s great! I have not learned the explicit predictions part yet. I’m still just reacting. My cognition has been so overloaded I never had time for that and I haven’t figured out where to fit it in. help? all I can predict right now is that what you right will be helpful.
PS have I mentioned how much I admire Your Pseudonym?
edit: hah! I wrote “right”. I never Grokked Puns. (although some were clear enough I did find them funny, of course; and I’ve been sensitive to Irony for Forever) edit^2: {the pun was unintentional{conciously}, but awesome} PPS I sent a link to my dad about this. I think he’ll get it. beyond that? also, notation matters (link?) but I’m sure you know that in your own way. so much happening by Accident these days. It seems to be coming from Communication. neat-o.
You might also want to know that when you reply to yourself, as you do above, you get notifications but I don’t. (I just happened to notice this in Recent Comments.)
I find lists useful for keeping track of things I want to get to later but don’t have time/capacity for now.
In principle, I endorse the idea of typographic markers for particular meta-level emphasis—what in speech I would use tone of speech for—but in practice I find it distracts me more than it helps, and I pattern-match it to crankishness. I sometimes use italics for the purpose, but I find even that more and more distasteful as time goes by. This all seems arbitrary and even unfair of me, but there it is anyway.
Re: pseudonym… thanks.
Two lines of text without an intervening blank line will get parsed as a single line, unless you put two blank spaces at the end of the first line.
Perfect! What’s a list?{serious}