What sort of help do you want?
Or, put a different way: how would you recognize something as helpful, if such help were provided?
Excellent question! I didn’t even think of that kind of ambiguity. I like the way you phrased it and then clarified it. Already helpful!
I consider a link to something really good (and preferably brief) helpful. Or the right sentence.
I would recognize something as helpful if I perceived that it would change my future behavior so that I communicate better. Better means: with less effort, more persuasive, not feeling left behind in a conversation, more accurate empathy. Heck, asking the right question, as you just did. Although I’m probably too “Socratic” for most people already.
Since this is too lofty, here’s a limited goal. I would like to know how to communicate with like-minded folks on this site as well as possible. E.g. I didn’t know the “friends” option existed, or what it does, or that I wasn’t seeing all posts until I finally clicked on preferences.
I feel that there’s too much unsaid wisdom here, or rather that it’s spread out to the winds, so an effort to fix that would be great. (or at least I haven’t found the succinct/definitive source and no I haven’t read the sequences. Frankly I’ve been put off by wordiness and colloquially. I’ll get over it eventually, I guess, because I’m picking at it already.)
Also, in the rant, I noticed ambiguity as an asset and a liability and as a CPU sink. Are there alternatives that I don’t know about for coping with this? And/or comments on my brace elaboration?
By the way, started reading Cialdini’s Influence and I judge it as helpful, though not for English per se yet. Honestly, i found HPMOR more amusing than helpful, but yes, it got me here, I suppose, so points!
Edit^2: I think that this line is my most immediate pain point:
I shouldn’t have to run a huge simulation just to speak or to listen! {motivated thinking}
Anything that helps me figure out work arounds or accept the necessity is great!
PS I just noticed that your question anticipated and resolved the answer “I don’t know.” Very slick. But let me say “I don’t know” too.
Regarding your most immediate pain point… if there’s a way around that, I don’t know it. Humans are complicated, understanding natural language requires a huge amount of pre-existing knowledge, and understanding it well enough to carry on a conversation requires building some sort of model of my interlocutor. I recognize that this is a more difficult task for some people than others, and that this is essentially unfair.
Well if there’s not a work around, there are coping strategies, surely. Here’s what I do {idealization}:
Ignore most of it
Wait until something catches my attention. Something worth thinking about or responding to
Try to think what to say and hope/dream-on that there’s a way to fit it into the conversation by the time I figured it out.
(Let’s see, how can I reverse what you did to me, on you?)
TheOtherDave, is coping with the complexity of communication a problem for you? If so, how do you deal with it? What would you recognize as a step forward on this point? And where do we go / who do we go to to get help on this?
It’s not a problem for me, in that I enjoy it. Communication is a complex puzzle, and I succeed at it regularly enough to find it rewarding. But I acknowledge that that approach isn’t available to everyone.
That said, I think it’s a skill worth mastering.
As for how to master it… yeah, that’s a great question. The best technique I know of is to make explicit predictions (typically private ones) of other people’s reactions, and when they are wrong, pay a lot of attention to exactly how they were wrong… what that tells me about what I thought was true about that person that turns out not to be true.
I am beginning to Embrace Constructive ambiguity, and think that I might enjoy Communication after all.
My current Stylistic plan: capitalize the letters of words where you intend the reader to notice a potential for ambiguity that you intend constructively.
the capitals above are in draft status; written by instinct. I like that I and My happen to come out capital, though.
e.g.
english is a Viciously ambiguous language.
… would get the emphasis more right. (and I notice that starting sentences clearly is going to be a bit of a problem)
wow. how do I give more Attention to your advice? it’s great! I have not learned the explicit predictions part yet. I’m still just reacting. My cognition has been so overloaded I never had time for that and I haven’t figured out where to fit it in. help? all I can predict right now is that what you right will be helpful.
PS have I mentioned how much I admire Your Pseudonym?
edit: hah! I wrote “right”. I never Grokked Puns. (although some were clear enough I did find them funny, of course; and I’ve been sensitive to Irony for Forever)
edit^2: {the pun was unintentional{conciously}, but awesome}
PPS I sent a link to my dad about this. I think he’ll get it. beyond that? also, notation matters (link?) but I’m sure you know that in your own way. so much happening by Accident these days. It seems to be coming from Communication. neat-o.
You might also want to know that when you reply to yourself, as you do above, you get notifications but I don’t. (I just happened to notice this in Recent Comments.)
I find lists useful for keeping track of things I want to get to later but don’t have time/capacity for now.
In principle, I endorse the idea of typographic markers for particular meta-level emphasis—what in speech I would use tone of speech for—but in practice I find it distracts me more than it helps, and I pattern-match it to crankishness. I sometimes use italics for the purpose, but I find even that more and more distasteful as time goes by. This all seems arbitrary and even unfair of me, but there it is anyway.
Re: pseudonym… thanks.
Two lines of text without an intervening blank line will get parsed as a single line, unless you put two blank spaces at the end of the first line.
Excellent question! I didn’t even think of that kind of ambiguity. I like the way you phrased it and then clarified it. Already helpful!
I consider a link to something really good (and preferably brief) helpful. Or the right sentence.
I would recognize something as helpful if I perceived that it would change my future behavior so that I communicate better. Better means: with less effort, more persuasive, not feeling left behind in a conversation, more accurate empathy. Heck, asking the right question, as you just did. Although I’m probably too “Socratic” for most people already.
Since this is too lofty, here’s a limited goal. I would like to know how to communicate with like-minded folks on this site as well as possible. E.g. I didn’t know the “friends” option existed, or what it does, or that I wasn’t seeing all posts until I finally clicked on preferences.
I feel that there’s too much unsaid wisdom here, or rather that it’s spread out to the winds, so an effort to fix that would be great. (or at least I haven’t found the succinct/definitive source and no I haven’t read the sequences. Frankly I’ve been put off by wordiness and colloquially. I’ll get over it eventually, I guess, because I’m picking at it already.)
Also, in the rant, I noticed ambiguity as an asset and a liability and as a CPU sink. Are there alternatives that I don’t know about for coping with this? And/or comments on my brace elaboration?
By the way, started reading Cialdini’s Influence and I judge it as helpful, though not for English per se yet. Honestly, i found HPMOR more amusing than helpful, but yes, it got me here, I suppose, so points!
Edit^2: I think that this line is my most immediate pain point:
Anything that helps me figure out work arounds or accept the necessity is great!
PS I just noticed that your question anticipated and resolved the answer “I don’t know.” Very slick. But let me say “I don’t know” too.
Regarding your most immediate pain point… if there’s a way around that, I don’t know it. Humans are complicated, understanding natural language requires a huge amount of pre-existing knowledge, and understanding it well enough to carry on a conversation requires building some sort of model of my interlocutor. I recognize that this is a more difficult task for some people than others, and that this is essentially unfair.
Well if there’s not a work around, there are coping strategies, surely. Here’s what I do {idealization}:
Ignore most of it
Wait until something catches my attention. Something worth thinking about or responding to
Try to think what to say and hope/dream-on that there’s a way to fit it into the conversation by the time I figured it out.
(Let’s see, how can I reverse what you did to me, on you?)
It’s not a problem for me, in that I enjoy it. Communication is a complex puzzle, and I succeed at it regularly enough to find it rewarding. But I acknowledge that that approach isn’t available to everyone.
That said, I think it’s a skill worth mastering.
As for how to master it… yeah, that’s a great question. The best technique I know of is to make explicit predictions (typically private ones) of other people’s reactions, and when they are wrong, pay a lot of attention to exactly how they were wrong… what that tells me about what I thought was true about that person that turns out not to be true.
Good advice. Thanks!
Edit: Yes, I am one of those look at the floor types. I’m trying to break that habit. Some improvement, maybe.
I am beginning to Embrace Constructive ambiguity, and think that I might enjoy Communication after all.
My current Stylistic plan: capitalize the letters of words where you intend the reader to notice a potential for ambiguity that you intend constructively.
the capitals above are in draft status; written by instinct. I like that I and My happen to come out capital, though.
e.g.
… would get the emphasis more right. (and I notice that starting sentences clearly is going to be a bit of a problem)
wow. how do I give more Attention to your advice? it’s great! I have not learned the explicit predictions part yet. I’m still just reacting. My cognition has been so overloaded I never had time for that and I haven’t figured out where to fit it in. help? all I can predict right now is that what you right will be helpful.
PS have I mentioned how much I admire Your Pseudonym?
edit: hah! I wrote “right”. I never Grokked Puns. (although some were clear enough I did find them funny, of course; and I’ve been sensitive to Irony for Forever) edit^2: {the pun was unintentional{conciously}, but awesome} PPS I sent a link to my dad about this. I think he’ll get it. beyond that? also, notation matters (link?) but I’m sure you know that in your own way. so much happening by Accident these days. It seems to be coming from Communication. neat-o.
You might also want to know that when you reply to yourself, as you do above, you get notifications but I don’t. (I just happened to notice this in Recent Comments.)
I find lists useful for keeping track of things I want to get to later but don’t have time/capacity for now.
In principle, I endorse the idea of typographic markers for particular meta-level emphasis—what in speech I would use tone of speech for—but in practice I find it distracts me more than it helps, and I pattern-match it to crankishness. I sometimes use italics for the purpose, but I find even that more and more distasteful as time goes by. This all seems arbitrary and even unfair of me, but there it is anyway.
Re: pseudonym… thanks.
Two lines of text without an intervening blank line will get parsed as a single line, unless you put two blank spaces at the end of the first line.
Perfect! What’s a list?{serious}