Modernity has made people quite averse to talking about and dealing with spirituality. I think maybe a big part of what’s going on is that while PR is a material concept, honor is a spiritual concept. It deals with meaning directly rather than only indirectly. Honor matters for its own sake (or can), matters to your soul. Whereas PR can only ever matter indirectly, only as a consequence of other things. No one has PR in their soul.
That would mean that people end up avoiding thinking about and relating to things like honor and reputation because it just feels weird. It feel like the sort of thing that you’re not supposed to deal with. It feels like something that science and technology have vaguely disproven.
I get how honor is a spiritual concept but don’t really get how reputation is. It seems like reputation is precisely the thing PR is concerned with while it ignores honor.
This is very confusing to me when Anna in the original post talks about “reputation” “honor” and “brand” as equivalent. Reputation and brand are precisely worrying about how others think of you (PR), whereas Honor is about how you think of yourself.
Yeah, I’m confused about this too. I feel like the real distinction is three-way:
Trying to embody specific virtues; vs.
Trying to convince others that you embody those virtues; vs.
Trying to make others approve of you.
Anna’s original post sort of sounds like it was distinguishing 3 from 2 -- “PR” and “defending your reputation/brand” are both about optimizing what others think of you, but 2 is less corruptible because it has more content (assuming you care about the specific content of your brand/reputation, and your goal isn’t just “have a positive brand/reputation”!).
Duncan’s reply feels more to me like it’s distinguishing 3 from 1 (while noting that 2 can sometimes emerge from 1 as a side-effect, because truly possessing a virtue can help convince others that you have that virtue).
I think the word “honor” encourages some sliding between 1 and 2: Anna’s focus was on defending your honor, which is more of a reputation-y category-2 thing, whereas Duncan spoke of “trying to be honorable”, which is a category-1 thing.
A note of caution: I think the analytic-philosophy thing I’m doing, of trying to carve things up into a precise and exhaustive set of buckets, risks picking the wrong carving and missing subtleties in the thing Anna was gesturing at in the OP.
E.g., Anna said:
If I am safeguarding my “honor” (or my “reputation”, “brand”, or “good name”), there are some fixed standards that I try to be known as adhering to. For example, in Game of Thrones, the Lannisters are safeguarding their “honor” by adhering to the principle “A Lannister always pays his debts.” They take pains to adhere to a certain standard, and to be known to adhere to that standard. Many examples are more complicated than this; a gentleman of 1800 who took up a duel to defend his “honor” was usually not defending his known adherence to a single simple principle a la the Lannisters. But it was still about his visible adherence to a fixed (though not explicit) societal standard.
I feel like this is a deep-ish paragraph that’s getting at some attitude shifts that haven’t yet been fully brought to consciousness in this discussion. Like, I feel like there’s a sense in which US-circa-2021 PR culture and “defend my good name” culture both have fixed standards, at any given moment in time. But there’s something different about the attitude toward those standards?
It’s like virtue and reputation (“honor”) were one thing at the time, and now they’re two things. So the very word “PR” has become a thing that feels manipulative, amoral—no one thinks it’s virtuous to do PR, it’s just what’s done.
I almost wonder if the problem is less “people stopped caring about being truly-intrinsically-virtuous” and more: People stopped rationalizing their reputation-management as virtuous; which fed into a “it’s impractical and uncouth to care about virtue” cycle; which resulted in people having too many degrees of freedom, because it’s easier to rationalize arbitrary actions as practical than to rationalize arbitrary actions as virtuous.
It’s like virtue and reputation (“honor”) were one thing at the time, and now they’re two things.
I almost wonder if the problem is less “people stopped caring about being truly-intrinsically-virtuous” and more: People stopped rationalizing their reputation-management as virtuous; which fed into a “it’s impractical and uncouth to care about virtue” cycle; which resulted in people having too many degrees of freedom, because it’s easier to rationalize arbitrary actions as practical than to rationalize arbitrary actions as virtuous.
It’s like virtue and reputation (“honor”) were one thing at the time
When I read this, I thought (with my feelings, not my words) “It sounds like Rob thinks honor is a combination of virtue and reputation, but I do not think that honor is a combination of virtue and reputation.”
So before I go and try to write a bunch about what I think honor might be, I’d like to check: Do you think that honor is a combination of virtue and reputation? Do you think that’s basically right but incomplete description of honor? Do you think that honor is some other thing entirely, which you could state? Do you not know what honor is in a way that you could state without a lot of time and effort?
I’d be interested to hear what you think honor is. :) I think the word ‘honor’ is used to point at some ‘inherently good things about a person’ (things related to integrity, promise-keeping, fairness, respect, grace) and also to point at some things about how others perceive you (that you’re seen as having honesty, principle, dignity, etc.). I wasn’t trying to precisely define ‘honor’, just saying that honor seemed to involve both internal-virtue-like things and reputation-like things.
That’s a good point. Reputation is less naturally spiritual. I think you can experience it both ways. Imagine someone who thinks about reputation as painted on their heart. Versus someone who is is fine with trying to manipulate their reputation.
I like this distinction. At the cost of generalising from fiction, in “A Civil Campaign”, Lois McMaster Bujold phrased it as: “Reputation is what other people know about you. Honour is what you know about yourself.” Quoted here:
Modernity has made people quite averse to talking about and dealing with spirituality. I think maybe a big part of what’s going on is that while PR is a material concept, honor is a spiritual concept. It deals with meaning directly rather than only indirectly. Honor matters for its own sake (or can), matters to your soul. Whereas PR can only ever matter indirectly, only as a consequence of other things. No one has PR in their soul.
That would mean that people end up avoiding thinking about and relating to things like honor and reputation because it just feels weird. It feel like the sort of thing that you’re not supposed to deal with. It feels like something that science and technology have vaguely disproven.
I get how honor is a spiritual concept but don’t really get how reputation is. It seems like reputation is precisely the thing PR is concerned with while it ignores honor.
This is very confusing to me when Anna in the original post talks about “reputation” “honor” and “brand” as equivalent. Reputation and brand are precisely worrying about how others think of you (PR), whereas Honor is about how you think of yourself.
Yeah, I’m confused about this too. I feel like the real distinction is three-way:
Trying to embody specific virtues; vs.
Trying to convince others that you embody those virtues; vs.
Trying to make others approve of you.
Anna’s original post sort of sounds like it was distinguishing 3 from 2 -- “PR” and “defending your reputation/brand” are both about optimizing what others think of you, but 2 is less corruptible because it has more content (assuming you care about the specific content of your brand/reputation, and your goal isn’t just “have a positive brand/reputation”!).
Duncan’s reply feels more to me like it’s distinguishing 3 from 1 (while noting that 2 can sometimes emerge from 1 as a side-effect, because truly possessing a virtue can help convince others that you have that virtue).
I think the word “honor” encourages some sliding between 1 and 2: Anna’s focus was on defending your honor, which is more of a reputation-y category-2 thing, whereas Duncan spoke of “trying to be honorable”, which is a category-1 thing.
A note of caution: I think the analytic-philosophy thing I’m doing, of trying to carve things up into a precise and exhaustive set of buckets, risks picking the wrong carving and missing subtleties in the thing Anna was gesturing at in the OP.
E.g., Anna said:
I feel like this is a deep-ish paragraph that’s getting at some attitude shifts that haven’t yet been fully brought to consciousness in this discussion. Like, I feel like there’s a sense in which US-circa-2021 PR culture and “defend my good name” culture both have fixed standards, at any given moment in time. But there’s something different about the attitude toward those standards?
It’s like virtue and reputation (“honor”) were one thing at the time, and now they’re two things. So the very word “PR” has become a thing that feels manipulative, amoral—no one thinks it’s virtuous to do PR, it’s just what’s done.
I almost wonder if the problem is less “people stopped caring about being truly-intrinsically-virtuous” and more: People stopped rationalizing their reputation-management as virtuous; which fed into a “it’s impractical and uncouth to care about virtue” cycle; which resulted in people having too many degrees of freedom, because it’s easier to rationalize arbitrary actions as practical than to rationalize arbitrary actions as virtuous.
Yeah, I was having similar thoughts.
When I read this, I thought (with my feelings, not my words) “It sounds like Rob thinks honor is a combination of virtue and reputation, but I do not think that honor is a combination of virtue and reputation.”
So before I go and try to write a bunch about what I think honor might be, I’d like to check: Do you think that honor is a combination of virtue and reputation? Do you think that’s basically right but incomplete description of honor? Do you think that honor is some other thing entirely, which you could state? Do you not know what honor is in a way that you could state without a lot of time and effort?
I’d be interested to hear what you think honor is. :) I think the word ‘honor’ is used to point at some ‘inherently good things about a person’ (things related to integrity, promise-keeping, fairness, respect, grace) and also to point at some things about how others perceive you (that you’re seen as having honesty, principle, dignity, etc.). I wasn’t trying to precisely define ‘honor’, just saying that honor seemed to involve both internal-virtue-like things and reputation-like things.
That’s a good point. Reputation is less naturally spiritual. I think you can experience it both ways. Imagine someone who thinks about reputation as painted on their heart. Versus someone who is is fine with trying to manipulate their reputation.
Furthe to Matt,
I like this distinction. At the cost of generalising from fiction, in “A Civil Campaign”, Lois McMaster Bujold phrased it as: “Reputation is what other people know about you. Honour is what you know about yourself.” Quoted here:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WhatYouAreInTheDark/Literature