I’d be interested to hear a steelman of ‘social shame’, which I think is something you’re gesturing at — that, regardless of what Logan’s talking about, a utopian society would make important use of ‘social shame’ to make things go well. (Perhaps that’s not your point, but it’s at least a thing I’m curious about!)
I’d need more evidence/arguments in order to be persuaded of any of these claims:
History, there’s been no such thing as private ‘shame’.
Private ‘shame’ is synonymous with ‘guilt’. (I think these are close together in concept space, but I strongly guess you’re missing important shades of meaning if you’re rounding off Logan’s topic to ‘guilt’. See also In Defense of Shame.)
In general, I think you should ask more initial questions and make fewer assumptions about what’s in Logan’s head. E.g., you’re assuming a very moralistic perspective on Logan’s part (that they’re really talking about guilt, which is really about “when we do something morally bad, or fail to do something morally good”), but Logan is a very aesthetics-oriented, very anti-morality sort of thinker.
Welp, I’ve clearly botched this, for which I apologize. To start with, I never meant to make any assumptions about what Logan was thinking, but I can clearly see where that was what I communicated despite myself. This was an unforced error on my part.
I can’t get the In Defense of Shame post, because I don’t have facebook, but I’d be keen to read—do you know if it was reposted anywhere else? I was unable to locate it at Agenty Duck or here. However, if it is about the book In Defense of Shame, then I was talking about the first of the two dogmas mentioned (which they reject).
What I meant to be talking about was the language drift between the past and present, though I now see Logan wasn’t using any more of a standard use of shame than I was. From the Shame Processing link, I see this:
According to me, shame is for keeping your actions in line with what you care about. It happens when you feel motivated to do something that you believe might damage what is valuable (whether or not you actually do the thing).
Shame indicates a particular kind of internal conflict. There’s something in favor of the motivation, and something else against it. Both parts are fighting for things that matter to you.
This is very interesting: on the one hand, it is closer to what I mean by guilt than what I mean by shame; on the other hand, it’s about reconciling competing priorities, which is supposed to be one of shame’s attributes over guilt.
I’m sad about the lack of a social element, but I was sad about that beforehand.
Regarding social and private shame: I think I agree that a utopian society would make use of social shame, but there’s a bunch of conditions attached to enable that good use which we now lack. That being said, I’ll consider the problem; I have an ongoing related reading list that should let me come to grips with the idea better.
Saying private shame is interesting; even in the sense that I was using shame, I’m not sure I’d oppose a notion of private shame. It’s really the suggestion of exclusively-private shame, or anti-social shame, with which I would quibble.
I think Logan’s Defense of Shame was mostly unrelated to the the book, FYI. (Or at least, it’s a FB comment that’s basically them just saying “I think Shame is a valuable part of you, here’s why, and here’s how.” It might overlap with the book but I’m guessing Logan’s take is fairly different).
I’d be interested to hear a steelman of ‘social shame’, which I think is something you’re gesturing at — that, regardless of what Logan’s talking about, a utopian society would make important use of ‘social shame’ to make things go well. (Perhaps that’s not your point, but it’s at least a thing I’m curious about!)
I’d need more evidence/arguments in order to be persuaded of any of these claims:
History, there’s been no such thing as private ‘shame’.
Private ‘shame’ is synonymous with ‘guilt’. (I think these are close together in concept space, but I strongly guess you’re missing important shades of meaning if you’re rounding off Logan’s topic to ‘guilt’. See also In Defense of Shame.)
In general, I think you should ask more initial questions and make fewer assumptions about what’s in Logan’s head. E.g., you’re assuming a very moralistic perspective on Logan’s part (that they’re really talking about guilt, which is really about “when we do something morally bad, or fail to do something morally good”), but Logan is a very aesthetics-oriented, very anti-morality sort of thinker.
Welp, I’ve clearly botched this, for which I apologize. To start with, I never meant to make any assumptions about what Logan was thinking, but I can clearly see where that was what I communicated despite myself. This was an unforced error on my part.
I can’t get the In Defense of Shame post, because I don’t have facebook, but I’d be keen to read—do you know if it was reposted anywhere else? I was unable to locate it at Agenty Duck or here. However, if it is about the book In Defense of Shame, then I was talking about the first of the two dogmas mentioned (which they reject).
What I meant to be talking about was the language drift between the past and present, though I now see Logan wasn’t using any more of a standard use of shame than I was. From the Shame Processing link, I see this:
This is very interesting: on the one hand, it is closer to what I mean by guilt than what I mean by shame; on the other hand, it’s about reconciling competing priorities, which is supposed to be one of shame’s attributes over guilt.
I’m sad about the lack of a social element, but I was sad about that beforehand.
Regarding social and private shame: I think I agree that a utopian society would make use of social shame, but there’s a bunch of conditions attached to enable that good use which we now lack. That being said, I’ll consider the problem; I have an ongoing related reading list that should let me come to grips with the idea better.
Saying private shame is interesting; even in the sense that I was using shame, I’m not sure I’d oppose a notion of private shame. It’s really the suggestion of exclusively-private shame, or anti-social shame, with which I would quibble.
I think Logan’s Defense of Shame was mostly unrelated to the the book, FYI. (Or at least, it’s a FB comment that’s basically them just saying “I think Shame is a valuable part of you, here’s why, and here’s how.” It might overlap with the book but I’m guessing Logan’s take is fairly different).
I strongly agree with the claim, even if we differ on the motivations. I cultivate a sense of shame myself.
Come to think of it, I also deploy my sense of shame with respect to exercise. Following on Rob’s questions, it could probably be considered private.