Why did I bring it up? Because I was worried about this George Sodini business, and because the promotional material you showed me seemed excessively optimistic in its promises of success with women, and because I think the kind of man having enough trouble that he’s willing to pay for a seduction course might be less astute and less realistic than average. I do think desperate guys can get suckered in by promises, and by an ideology that makes seduction look like victory. I think bad things can happen when you tell unhappy people “Here is a way for you to triumph over all the [insert bad word, maybe “political correctness police”] who are keeping you down.” That pattern has played out many times and sometimes the results are undesirable. It’s just something to be careful about.
On the other hand, you (HughRistic) have been very reasonable, and I’m pretty sure your kind of PUA is a good thing, and you obviously aren’t a desperate person in the grip of an ideology. Maybe that kind of thing is rare; I’ve seen it on the internet but obviously that doesn’t tell me if it’s common.
I don’t think “any complaint of unfairness in the dating world” is creepy. I just don’t. I don’t think anybody around here is creepy. I think creeps are creepy. I thought we might be able to agree to be anti-creep.
You come up with a system like PUA, I think it’s fair to ask you to disclaim unethical use of it. It must get tiring after a while, but that’s the way things work. People who make and play video games have to say, over and over again, “No, games do not make people go on shooting sprees, and we’re doing our best not to encourage that.” I’m sure they’re sick of it, but they’ve made themselves the ambassadors of their art, like it or not. People will judge your art based on its ambassadors.
I think the kind of man having enough trouble that he’s willing to pay for a seduction course might be less astute and less realistic than average.
Wow. Just… wow.
So… anyone with poor social skills is “less astute and less realistic than average”?
I suspect that your estimation of how much “trouble” is “enough” is way off, and consequently, your estimation of how many men end up in the “willing to pay” category… and hence, whether you can reasonably compare those folks to the “average”.
I know a guy with a $20 million/year training business, that sells many products at $20 and under. That’s one guy, in a business with literally dozens of big names, and maybe a hundred small ones.
And that’s with his (and everybody else’s) products being massively pirated. Even men who aren’t willing to pay, are still getting the material. Especially since there is tons of it available for free as well via internet forums (though the free stuff is not always of the best quality).
Ironically, it is the men who are willing to pay the most, who are most likely to be exposed to high-quality, low-deception, maximally self-improvement oriented material. Sadly, this is because it’s (comparatively speaking) a niche market.
IOW, the average guy wants a quick fix—the dating equivalent of the little blue pill. And the only reason that more guys don’t buy the products (that I’ve heard from internet marketing discussions with the guys who sell them) is that their main point of sales resistance is admitting they “have enough trouble” to need the product!
In other words, the average guy wishes he were better at meeting/relating to women, but thinks (since all his friends are signaling that they’re studs) that he’s the only one having any trouble, and therefore must be a loser.
(Note: this is the average guy, meaning “most of the male population”, not “average guy that women already relate to”, which might explain why you think the average guy is below-average.)
Neil Strauss’s book (and Mystery’s show) have actually done men an enormous service by making it less “weird” to be interested in improving one’s skills at meeting or relating to women, so that interest in the subject isn’t necessarily signaling to your peers that you’re not as good as they’re all pretending to be.
In short, it’s only above average men (in success with women) who don’t wish, at some point in their lives, that they were better at meeting or relating to women.
(Do remember that while the marketing rhetoric tends to “have any woman/as many women you want”, this is so that the average purchaser will say to themselves, “well, I just want to be able to meet/talk to The One, so that ought to be really easy if I get this product, and if I can do more that’s just a bonus”.)
Ironically, it is the men who are willing to pay the most, who are most likely to be exposed to high-quality, low-deception, maximally self-improvement oriented material. Sadly, this is because it’s (comparatively speaking) a niche market.
I’m trying to imagine a marketing campaign—maybe “good sense at reasonable prices”. Seriously, is it that small a niche?
I’m trying to imagine a marketing campaign—maybe “good sense at reasonable prices”. Seriously, is it that small a niche?
High prices are a signal, in both directions. On the purchasing end, it signals commitment, and on the selling end, it signals good results.
(Btw, internet marketers routinely advise that charging more money means you get fewer customers, but there will be far fewer problem customers and you will enjoy working with them more. My own experiences support this hypothesis.)
Thanks, Sarah, that answers my question. If you said this stuff in the first place, it would have helped me understand why you brought up the issue of violence. I still think it’s a bit of a stretch to connect George Sodini to pickup (he did actually take a pickup seminar at one point, but obviously had deeper problems) to pickup, though I do grant some of what PUAs write sounds adverserial towards women.
and because I think the kind of man having enough trouble that he’s willing to pay for a seduction course might be less astute and less realistic than average.
I agree with pjeby’s response on this point.
People will judge your art based on its ambassadors.
I realize that, and I know it’s not your fault or my fault that so many of the ambassadors of pickup suck. That’s why I’m trying to talk about it in a way that sounds reasonable and morally neutral, so I can see what people think of it whens it’s translated into a language that isn’t so off-putting.
Why did I bring it up? Because I was worried about this George Sodini business, and because the promotional material you showed me seemed excessively optimistic in its promises of success with women, and because I think the kind of man having enough trouble that he’s willing to pay for a seduction course might be less astute and less realistic than average. I do think desperate guys can get suckered in by promises, and by an ideology that makes seduction look like victory. I think bad things can happen when you tell unhappy people “Here is a way for you to triumph over all the [insert bad word, maybe “political correctness police”] who are keeping you down.” That pattern has played out many times and sometimes the results are undesirable. It’s just something to be careful about.
On the other hand, you (HughRistic) have been very reasonable, and I’m pretty sure your kind of PUA is a good thing, and you obviously aren’t a desperate person in the grip of an ideology. Maybe that kind of thing is rare; I’ve seen it on the internet but obviously that doesn’t tell me if it’s common.
I don’t think “any complaint of unfairness in the dating world” is creepy. I just don’t. I don’t think anybody around here is creepy. I think creeps are creepy. I thought we might be able to agree to be anti-creep.
You come up with a system like PUA, I think it’s fair to ask you to disclaim unethical use of it. It must get tiring after a while, but that’s the way things work. People who make and play video games have to say, over and over again, “No, games do not make people go on shooting sprees, and we’re doing our best not to encourage that.” I’m sure they’re sick of it, but they’ve made themselves the ambassadors of their art, like it or not. People will judge your art based on its ambassadors.
Wow. Just… wow.
So… anyone with poor social skills is “less astute and less realistic than average”?
I suspect that your estimation of how much “trouble” is “enough” is way off, and consequently, your estimation of how many men end up in the “willing to pay” category… and hence, whether you can reasonably compare those folks to the “average”.
I know a guy with a $20 million/year training business, that sells many products at $20 and under. That’s one guy, in a business with literally dozens of big names, and maybe a hundred small ones.
And that’s with his (and everybody else’s) products being massively pirated. Even men who aren’t willing to pay, are still getting the material. Especially since there is tons of it available for free as well via internet forums (though the free stuff is not always of the best quality).
Ironically, it is the men who are willing to pay the most, who are most likely to be exposed to high-quality, low-deception, maximally self-improvement oriented material. Sadly, this is because it’s (comparatively speaking) a niche market.
IOW, the average guy wants a quick fix—the dating equivalent of the little blue pill. And the only reason that more guys don’t buy the products (that I’ve heard from internet marketing discussions with the guys who sell them) is that their main point of sales resistance is admitting they “have enough trouble” to need the product!
In other words, the average guy wishes he were better at meeting/relating to women, but thinks (since all his friends are signaling that they’re studs) that he’s the only one having any trouble, and therefore must be a loser.
(Note: this is the average guy, meaning “most of the male population”, not “average guy that women already relate to”, which might explain why you think the average guy is below-average.)
Neil Strauss’s book (and Mystery’s show) have actually done men an enormous service by making it less “weird” to be interested in improving one’s skills at meeting or relating to women, so that interest in the subject isn’t necessarily signaling to your peers that you’re not as good as they’re all pretending to be.
In short, it’s only above average men (in success with women) who don’t wish, at some point in their lives, that they were better at meeting or relating to women.
(Do remember that while the marketing rhetoric tends to “have any woman/as many women you want”, this is so that the average purchaser will say to themselves, “well, I just want to be able to meet/talk to The One, so that ought to be really easy if I get this product, and if I can do more that’s just a bonus”.)
I’m trying to imagine a marketing campaign—maybe “good sense at reasonable prices”. Seriously, is it that small a niche?
High prices are a signal, in both directions. On the purchasing end, it signals commitment, and on the selling end, it signals good results.
(Btw, internet marketers routinely advise that charging more money means you get fewer customers, but there will be far fewer problem customers and you will enjoy working with them more. My own experiences support this hypothesis.)
Thanks, Sarah, that answers my question. If you said this stuff in the first place, it would have helped me understand why you brought up the issue of violence. I still think it’s a bit of a stretch to connect George Sodini to pickup (he did actually take a pickup seminar at one point, but obviously had deeper problems) to pickup, though I do grant some of what PUAs write sounds adverserial towards women.
I agree with pjeby’s response on this point.
I realize that, and I know it’s not your fault or my fault that so many of the ambassadors of pickup suck. That’s why I’m trying to talk about it in a way that sounds reasonable and morally neutral, so I can see what people think of it whens it’s translated into a language that isn’t so off-putting.