Very interesting. While some PUAs have messed up attitudes, the guys in that link just sound like a fundamentally different phenotype. If PUAs were as uncaring and hateful as some people think they are, then PUAs would probably be doing what these guys are doing and working on alcohol and coercion skills, rather than obsessing over the minutiae of body language and signaling.
Another interesting part of account in that thread is the level of self-deception in the perpetrator interview, assuming that it’s not simply insincere. The strategy seems to be something like “figure out the way to get what you want without caring about the law/morality and only care about avoiding getting caught/prosecuted, then self-deceive yourself into thinking that it’s OK.”
I found this paragraph from Nancy’s article interesting for why PUA may be getting a worse reputation than they deserve.
Many of the motivational factors that were identified in incarcerated rapists have been shown to apply equally to undetected rapists. When compared to men who do not rape, these undetected rapists are measurably more angry at women, more motivated by the need to dominate and control women, more impulsive and disinhibited in their behavior, more hyper-masculine in their beliefs and attitudes, less empathic and more antisocial.
Since a lot of what PUA teach is that women like to be controlled, it probably sets off warning bells that PUA in general might be overly controlling and fit in this category.
The fact that the vast majority are likely to be less controlling than average, because they aren’t naturally good at it, can’t be ascertained by the language used.
This is probably largely to blame for the negative reactions many women have to PUA. It fits this pattern completion that many men are undetected manipulation rapists.
PUA’s fit a handful of these patterns, but some are so broad so as to fit most anyone. For example; everyone is at least somewhat motivated by a need to dominate and control—to varying degrees and men more on average. Alchohol makes people more impulsive and disinhibited—that is one of the main reasons we so enjoy it.
PUAs, like most men, are not angry at women (quite the opposite), are not generally impulsive, and are certainly not antisocial.
Told by who? This doesn’t match my impressions of typical PUA psychology.
Generalized anger towards women is, I believe, a pretty rare trait for men to have in general. And the psychology of a typical guy who PUA appeals to is more likely to be overly academic, cerebral and introspective. These types of guys have over-active pre-frontal-cortices—the exact opposite of impulsive angry types. They are overly concerned about what people think, overly concerned about the minute details of social interactions, and over think and over analyze everything they say in social contexts.
Typically speaking, they aren’t angry at women, they are afraid of them. This psychological profile is also less prone to anger in general—more mild, reserved, shy, nerdy, etc etc.
Behavioral inhibition to the unfamiliar is a temperamental construct that refers to a characteristic propensity to react to both social and nonsocial novelty with inhibition.
Yes, PUAs tend to be shifted in the directions you describe. Though as the movement becomes more and more popular, we will start seeing different male phenotypes in it.
These types of guys have over-active pre-frontal-cortices—the exact opposite of impulsive angry types.
Yes. My pre-frontal cortex is like a maze. It took me years to learn to be able to do things that I want to do without my cortex choking the impulse. This is a great psychology for careful, high-precision tasks, but it’s a horrible psychology for social interaction.
This psychology is part of my posting style that a few people have noted lately. It’s not as easy as it looks, but in general my brain is massively wired for “look before you leap.”
Yes. My pre-frontal cortex is like a maze. It took me years to learn to be able to do things that I want to do without my cortex choking the impulse. This is a great psychology for careful, high-precision tasks, but it’s a horrible psychology for social interaction.
Yea, i’m the same. Perhaps it’s a universal brain phenotype variant that gives one a prediliction and edge for intellectual careers and endevours.
But I really do wish I could easily just switch to the more social brain phenotype some people have on a whim. Alcohol of course can do this to some extent, but it’s far from perfect and has so many side effects.
Long ago I tried prozac for a couple of months and it had a dramatic effect on my personality—I became naturally more extroverted. It is vaguely like a milder, saner version of the MDMA enthogen effect but made permanent. I don’t think it made me actually less intelligent, but the personality shift made me effectively less intelligent—it just naturally changes what you are interested in and how you actually think. It is not the best state of mind for everyday intellectual work. It would be much better if they had a quick acting version with low side effects, but unfortunately it takes weeks to take effect, has a long half-life, side effects, and tolerance/dependence issues.
PUA practice and techniques, especially inner-game stuff, can help a good deal, but it seems like it can never really actually make one more extroverted in the way that some drugs can. I wonder if there are techniques that could enduce more extroverted states of mind with sufficient time and training.
Long ago I tried prozac for a couple of months and it had a dramatic effect on my personality—I became naturally more extroverted. It is vaguely like a milder, saner version of the MDMA enthogen effect but made permanent. I don’t think it made me actually less intelligent, but the personality shift made me effectively less intelligent—it just naturally changes what you are interested in and how you actually think. It is not the best state of mind for everyday intellectual work. It would be much better if they had a quick acting version with low side effects, but unfortunately it takes weeks to take effect, has a long half-life, side effects, and tolerance/dependence issues.
Rhodilia_rosea. It has similar but milder effects and is far better suited to intermittent usage.
Alcohol of course can do this to some extent, but it’s far from perfect and has so many side effects.
If alcohol gives you the desired effect then phenibut will most likely do so more effectively and without alcohol’s deleterious effects on cognition judgement and liver health. The unfortunate thing is that it builds up tolerance relatively quickly so is best used just once or twice a week rather than every day.
I’ve become more extroverted as a result of a lot of Alexander Technique and such—I think a lot of the ability to be comfortable with people is the ability to physically get into sync with them.
I didn’t go into the bodywork with the intent of becoming more comfortable with people—I was trying to stop feeling so disconnected from myself.
I’ve heard about Alexander Technique having those types of effects from other people—do you think it is because of the subconscious effects of better posture itself, or better awareness of body language and mirroring?
I learned about body language and mirroring through PUA reading, and it is eye-opening once you become aware of it. It’s strange and alarming how often it works (how conscious mirroring results in the other reciprocating—presumably unconsciously).
I hadn’t thought about the effects of more free/efficient movement [1], but I wouldn’t be surprised if it helps. Subjectively, it seems like more pleasure, less anxiety, and more awareness when I’m around people. Logically, I think mirroring and entraining are a part of it, but I don’t feel it that way.
[1] Alexander Technique is not about posture. It produces results which look something like “good posture”, but without the stiffness.
AT is about getting out of the way of your kinesthetic sense rather than adding more conscious control to the details of what you’re doing.
Do they talk about end-gaining? A big part of the challenge of Alexander Technique (as I understand it) is to let/tell yourself to release, and then not try to force results.
If becoming PUAs reduces their anger in the later stages, it seems much better than nothing (where they would presumably stay angry). Are you saying that PUA communities should devote more resources to reducing the anger of new members? Or are you suggesting that PUA communities increase the anger of new members before reducing it?
Disclaimer: My whole understanding of PUAs comes from HughRistik (on this site and elsewhere) and other people on this site.
This reminds me of the movie “Anger Management” where the coach deliberately makes the student angry and then asks “why so angry”. If we adopt the axiom that anger is always wrong no matter what other people do to you, we’ve already lost. Please judge people by the consequences of their actions, not by the emotions they feel.
Very interesting. While some PUAs have messed up attitudes, the guys in that link just sound like a fundamentally different phenotype. If PUAs were as uncaring and hateful as some people think they are, then PUAs would probably be doing what these guys are doing and working on alcohol and coercion skills, rather than obsessing over the minutiae of body language and signaling.
Another interesting part of account in that thread is the level of self-deception in the perpetrator interview, assuming that it’s not simply insincere. The strategy seems to be something like “figure out the way to get what you want without caring about the law/morality and only care about avoiding getting caught/prosecuted, then self-deceive yourself into thinking that it’s OK.”
I found this paragraph from Nancy’s article interesting for why PUA may be getting a worse reputation than they deserve.
Since a lot of what PUA teach is that women like to be controlled, it probably sets off warning bells that PUA in general might be overly controlling and fit in this category.
The fact that the vast majority are likely to be less controlling than average, because they aren’t naturally good at it, can’t be ascertained by the language used.
This is probably largely to blame for the negative reactions many women have to PUA. It fits this pattern completion that many men are undetected manipulation rapists.
PUA’s fit a handful of these patterns, but some are so broad so as to fit most anyone. For example; everyone is at least somewhat motivated by a need to dominate and control—to varying degrees and men more on average. Alchohol makes people more impulsive and disinhibited—that is one of the main reasons we so enjoy it.
PUAs, like most men, are not angry at women (quite the opposite), are not generally impulsive, and are certainly not antisocial.
I’ve been told here that a lot of PUAs start out angry at women.
Told by who? This doesn’t match my impressions of typical PUA psychology.
Generalized anger towards women is, I believe, a pretty rare trait for men to have in general. And the psychology of a typical guy who PUA appeals to is more likely to be overly academic, cerebral and introspective. These types of guys have over-active pre-frontal-cortices—the exact opposite of impulsive angry types. They are overly concerned about what people think, overly concerned about the minute details of social interactions, and over think and over analyze everything they say in social contexts.
Typically speaking, they aren’t angry at women, they are afraid of them. This psychological profile is also less prone to anger in general—more mild, reserved, shy, nerdy, etc etc.
See also behavioral inhibition:
Yes, PUAs tend to be shifted in the directions you describe. Though as the movement becomes more and more popular, we will start seeing different male phenotypes in it.
Yes. My pre-frontal cortex is like a maze. It took me years to learn to be able to do things that I want to do without my cortex choking the impulse. This is a great psychology for careful, high-precision tasks, but it’s a horrible psychology for social interaction.
This psychology is part of my posting style that a few people have noted lately. It’s not as easy as it looks, but in general my brain is massively wired for “look before you leap.”
Yea, i’m the same. Perhaps it’s a universal brain phenotype variant that gives one a prediliction and edge for intellectual careers and endevours.
But I really do wish I could easily just switch to the more social brain phenotype some people have on a whim. Alcohol of course can do this to some extent, but it’s far from perfect and has so many side effects.
Long ago I tried prozac for a couple of months and it had a dramatic effect on my personality—I became naturally more extroverted. It is vaguely like a milder, saner version of the MDMA enthogen effect but made permanent. I don’t think it made me actually less intelligent, but the personality shift made me effectively less intelligent—it just naturally changes what you are interested in and how you actually think. It is not the best state of mind for everyday intellectual work. It would be much better if they had a quick acting version with low side effects, but unfortunately it takes weeks to take effect, has a long half-life, side effects, and tolerance/dependence issues.
PUA practice and techniques, especially inner-game stuff, can help a good deal, but it seems like it can never really actually make one more extroverted in the way that some drugs can. I wonder if there are techniques that could enduce more extroverted states of mind with sufficient time and training.
Rhodilia_rosea. It has similar but milder effects and is far better suited to intermittent usage.
If alcohol gives you the desired effect then phenibut will most likely do so more effectively and without alcohol’s deleterious effects on cognition judgement and liver health. The unfortunate thing is that it builds up tolerance relatively quickly so is best used just once or twice a week rather than every day.
I’ve become more extroverted as a result of a lot of Alexander Technique and such—I think a lot of the ability to be comfortable with people is the ability to physically get into sync with them.
I didn’t go into the bodywork with the intent of becoming more comfortable with people—I was trying to stop feeling so disconnected from myself.
I’ve heard about Alexander Technique having those types of effects from other people—do you think it is because of the subconscious effects of better posture itself, or better awareness of body language and mirroring?
I learned about body language and mirroring through PUA reading, and it is eye-opening once you become aware of it. It’s strange and alarming how often it works (how conscious mirroring results in the other reciprocating—presumably unconsciously).
You sure you aren’t a PUA nancy?
I hadn’t thought about the effects of more free/efficient movement [1], but I wouldn’t be surprised if it helps. Subjectively, it seems like more pleasure, less anxiety, and more awareness when I’m around people. Logically, I think mirroring and entraining are a part of it, but I don’t feel it that way.
[1] Alexander Technique is not about posture. It produces results which look something like “good posture”, but without the stiffness.
AT is about getting out of the way of your kinesthetic sense rather than adding more conscious control to the details of what you’re doing.
PUAs love the Alexander Technique. It’s right there in Neil Strauss’ book.
Do they talk about end-gaining? A big part of the challenge of Alexander Technique (as I understand it) is to let/tell yourself to release, and then not try to force results.
A lot of AA members start out as alcoholics, but lets make sure we understand how the causality works.
A lot of men start out angry at women and by learning how the game works and gaining some skills in playing it they eliminate the source of the anger.
I have some concern for how they treat women when they (the PUAs) are still in the early stages.
If becoming PUAs reduces their anger in the later stages, it seems much better than nothing (where they would presumably stay angry). Are you saying that PUA communities should devote more resources to reducing the anger of new members? Or are you suggesting that PUA communities increase the anger of new members before reducing it?
Disclaimer: My whole understanding of PUAs comes from HughRistik (on this site and elsewhere) and other people on this site.
This reminds me of the movie “Anger Management” where the coach deliberately makes the student angry and then asks “why so angry”. If we adopt the axiom that anger is always wrong no matter what other people do to you, we’ve already lost. Please judge people by the consequences of their actions, not by the emotions they feel.