Why is it then that the most vocal critics of pornography and prostitution are generally women?
Because both industries are full of abuse that is mostly directed at women, which fact has been turned into general condemnation of sex work instead of specific address of the factors that directly precipitate said abuse. “Horn effect” (opposite of halo effect) probably bears some responsibility for the extension of this criticism to harmless subtypes of porn/sex work, such as animated pornography which plausibly never leads to abuse of its (voice) actors.
Because both industries are full of abuse that is mostly directed at women
What exactly do you mean by “full of abuse” and how do you quantify it?
I have some friends who worked in that industry, and it has more gender equality than most others—such as almost any of the high tech sectors. Female actresses are paid far more on average and women are fairly heavily involved in the business side now as well. It’s not all peaches and roses of course. But I suspect that most of the image of ‘women being abused’ is based on some hard preconceptions one brings in—namely that pornography is inherently wrong in the first place. If you start with that assumption, it will only be reinforced.
I have no direct personal experience with the production of porn or prostitution. Various blogs I read produce statistics about sex work indicating that prostitutes are commonly abused by clients, pimps, police, etc. I’m sure there’s plenty of live action porn that’s entirely on the up-and-up, and I’m glad your friends found that to be their experience; however, I have heard from people whose information I’m not confident in dismissing that porn participants are not overwhelmingly willing and uncoerced. (I have the impression that coercion is more prevalent in niches like bestiality porn than in mainstream stuff; and I’m told by people who would know such things that hard BDSM productions go to considerable length to prove their consensuality.)
While there definitely is some overlap between prostitution and porn, they are completely different industries separated by the legal divide. When a girl shows up on a porn set, she has undoubtedly given consent—and would typically sign a contract. As porn production companies can operate legally it is just completely against their interests to break the law—especially considering that their end product is video evidence. In the modern era there is no shortage of attractive young women all too willing to perform all kinds of sex acts on camera.
There are certainly incidents where girls are tricked into doing additional acts they didn’t sign for, but there is a huge legal risk to that which you need to consider. You site strong reasons why BSDM productions go to great lengths to show evidence of consent (typically an interview with the actress that goes into details about the subsequent sex acts) - and these are factors which act as massive dis-incentives to coercion.
Prostitution on the other hand is actually illegal, and because anyone partaking in it is already breaking the law it attracts a criminal element and is considerably more dangerous for all parties involved. You can’t really compare the two in terms of safety.
There’s a big difference between something being consensual and something being non-abusive. Just because an actress signs a contract doesn’t mean that she won’t be abused, even if the contract holder never violates the letter or the spirit of the contract.
It’s pretty common in many professions for bosses to abuse their workers in many different ways; the claim is that it is more common and more severe in sex industries. Like Alicorn, I’m glad that your friends didn’t have those experiences, but I’m also under the impression that their experiences are not representative of the norm.
Also, you assume that prostitution is illegal; one of the best arguments for legalizing it is that it seems to significantly reduce the amount of abuse. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a culture of abuse even in jurisdictions where prostitution is legal, just that there are more recourses to fighting it so that it is lessened.
Just because an actress signs a contract doesn’t mean that she won’t be abused, even if the contract holder never violates the letter or the spirit of the contract.
I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around this—what do you exactly consider ‘abuse’ in the context of pornography? Surely not the sex acts themselves, as they are legalized b contractual consent—part of the job. Do you mean verbal abuse?
Perhaps there is a lower standard for that in pornography, but to be honest from my understanding you will find more verbal abuse in the regular film industry.
And like the film industry, porn is largely built around small companies and many independent agents. At a larger production company the regular workplace rules would apply—sexual and non-sexual harrassement and all that.
But there are other notions of abuse. What about a producer who imports foreign girls for porn who speak poor english and provides them with a nice place to live and drugs? Sounds like a pimp, and yet life is never black and white, as there are plenty of young girls who think this is a fine idea and much more fun than being a strugglin waitress.
But I guess the drug part of those situations is illegal.
As prostitution is actually illegal, it can attract criminal elements and there you certainly have issues with other criminal behaviour—assault and other forms of actual illegal abuse. I believe these types of criminal incidents are rare in pornography because of it’s legal legitimacy.
Contracts rarely discuss tenets of human decency. Whether you work in a cubicle, behind a cash register, or in front of a camera, you can have a boss and co-workers that treat you like garbage. I consider being perpetually insulted, looked down upon and laughed at a form of abuse, and am under the impression that these things are much worse in the porn industry than they are in more “respectable” industries. I am also under the impression that more physical forms of abuse, like manhandling, that still fall short of assault, are also much more common.
I think the power dynamics are different in the non-adult film industry in such a way as to make it unlikely to be worse than the adult film industry. I know two people in different parts of the film industry, and while they’ve had negative experiences, none of the situations they’ve dealt with seem like they wouldn’t have been exacerbated in an adult film environment. Also it seems like the rate and severity of sexual abuse would almost certainly be worse in porn.
I imagine that you are correct in speculating that larger studios deal with less of this, but I certainly don’t know.
Indecent is an account of ten years in the sex trade—the author’s experience sounds as though it’s between what you describe and what Jacob describes—bad (mostly because of obnoxious clients) but not horrendous.
The most surprising essay—she talks about the bacon deficiency economy in which restaurants never give you enough bacon, so she cooks and eats four pounds of bacon to be sure she has enough—used to be online, but doesn’t seem to be there any more.
I will tentatively recommend her books to any of the men here who can’t seem to figure out why things keep blowing up when they write about sex, since it seems to me that they have a blank spot in their model of the universe about women having desires and making choices. She’s quite emphatic about the inside of her head.
I’m making massive efforts not to blame the guys—I have some scary blind spots myself, including one that I was at least past 35 before I realized I had. It turned out that I believed women had emotions and men had desires. That is, I believed men wanted things and women had reactions to getting or not getting what they wanted.
What clued me into the blind spot was noticing that men had facial expressions which seemed to indicate emotional reactions, and that I was surprised by this.
Possibly relevant: I was born in 1953-- I hope things were more stereotyped then than they are now, but I don’t think things have completely changed.
any of the men here who can’t seem to figure out why things keep blowing up when they write about sex, since it seems to me that they have a blank spot in their model of the universe about women having desires and making choices.
Since I made the comment that initiated this latest mini-flare-up, I feel the need to make it clear that I am not myself in that category. I see the non-alignment of desires among humans as a general problem, of which the sex issues discussed above are merely one particular manifestation.
Possibly relevant: I was born in 1953
I had actually gotten the impression that you were older than is typical here; and on thinking about it, I suspect it had to do with your first name (which was a lot more popular at around that time than 20-40 years later).
I see the non-alignment of desires among humans as a general problem, of which the sex issues discussed above are merely one particular manifestation.
Grasping that non-alignment is a general problem is an important start, but I don’t think it’s the same as understanding what a specific non-alignment is.
Because both industries are full of abuse that is mostly directed at women, which fact has been turned into general condemnation of sex work instead of specific address of the factors that directly precipitate said abuse.
It seems to me that when people advocate further criminalizing sex work on this basis they are either dissembling (in the way advocates for professional licensing dissemble that it is about ‘protecting consumers’ because it is more effective than admitting they are trying to protect their own interests) or simply horribly misguided in how best to address the (genuine) problems you describe.
Because both industries are full of abuse that is mostly directed at women, which fact has been turned into general condemnation of sex work instead of specific address of the factors that directly precipitate said abuse. “Horn effect” (opposite of halo effect) probably bears some responsibility for the extension of this criticism to harmless subtypes of porn/sex work, such as animated pornography which plausibly never leads to abuse of its (voice) actors.
What exactly do you mean by “full of abuse” and how do you quantify it?
I have some friends who worked in that industry, and it has more gender equality than most others—such as almost any of the high tech sectors. Female actresses are paid far more on average and women are fairly heavily involved in the business side now as well. It’s not all peaches and roses of course. But I suspect that most of the image of ‘women being abused’ is based on some hard preconceptions one brings in—namely that pornography is inherently wrong in the first place. If you start with that assumption, it will only be reinforced.
I have no direct personal experience with the production of porn or prostitution. Various blogs I read produce statistics about sex work indicating that prostitutes are commonly abused by clients, pimps, police, etc. I’m sure there’s plenty of live action porn that’s entirely on the up-and-up, and I’m glad your friends found that to be their experience; however, I have heard from people whose information I’m not confident in dismissing that porn participants are not overwhelmingly willing and uncoerced. (I have the impression that coercion is more prevalent in niches like bestiality porn than in mainstream stuff; and I’m told by people who would know such things that hard BDSM productions go to considerable length to prove their consensuality.)
While there definitely is some overlap between prostitution and porn, they are completely different industries separated by the legal divide. When a girl shows up on a porn set, she has undoubtedly given consent—and would typically sign a contract. As porn production companies can operate legally it is just completely against their interests to break the law—especially considering that their end product is video evidence. In the modern era there is no shortage of attractive young women all too willing to perform all kinds of sex acts on camera.
There are certainly incidents where girls are tricked into doing additional acts they didn’t sign for, but there is a huge legal risk to that which you need to consider. You site strong reasons why BSDM productions go to great lengths to show evidence of consent (typically an interview with the actress that goes into details about the subsequent sex acts) - and these are factors which act as massive dis-incentives to coercion.
Prostitution on the other hand is actually illegal, and because anyone partaking in it is already breaking the law it attracts a criminal element and is considerably more dangerous for all parties involved. You can’t really compare the two in terms of safety.
There’s a big difference between something being consensual and something being non-abusive. Just because an actress signs a contract doesn’t mean that she won’t be abused, even if the contract holder never violates the letter or the spirit of the contract.
It’s pretty common in many professions for bosses to abuse their workers in many different ways; the claim is that it is more common and more severe in sex industries. Like Alicorn, I’m glad that your friends didn’t have those experiences, but I’m also under the impression that their experiences are not representative of the norm.
Also, you assume that prostitution is illegal; one of the best arguments for legalizing it is that it seems to significantly reduce the amount of abuse. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a culture of abuse even in jurisdictions where prostitution is legal, just that there are more recourses to fighting it so that it is lessened.
I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around this—what do you exactly consider ‘abuse’ in the context of pornography? Surely not the sex acts themselves, as they are legalized b contractual consent—part of the job. Do you mean verbal abuse?
Perhaps there is a lower standard for that in pornography, but to be honest from my understanding you will find more verbal abuse in the regular film industry.
And like the film industry, porn is largely built around small companies and many independent agents. At a larger production company the regular workplace rules would apply—sexual and non-sexual harrassement and all that.
But there are other notions of abuse. What about a producer who imports foreign girls for porn who speak poor english and provides them with a nice place to live and drugs? Sounds like a pimp, and yet life is never black and white, as there are plenty of young girls who think this is a fine idea and much more fun than being a strugglin waitress.
But I guess the drug part of those situations is illegal.
As prostitution is actually illegal, it can attract criminal elements and there you certainly have issues with other criminal behaviour—assault and other forms of actual illegal abuse. I believe these types of criminal incidents are rare in pornography because of it’s legal legitimacy.
Contracts rarely discuss tenets of human decency. Whether you work in a cubicle, behind a cash register, or in front of a camera, you can have a boss and co-workers that treat you like garbage. I consider being perpetually insulted, looked down upon and laughed at a form of abuse, and am under the impression that these things are much worse in the porn industry than they are in more “respectable” industries. I am also under the impression that more physical forms of abuse, like manhandling, that still fall short of assault, are also much more common.
I think the power dynamics are different in the non-adult film industry in such a way as to make it unlikely to be worse than the adult film industry. I know two people in different parts of the film industry, and while they’ve had negative experiences, none of the situations they’ve dealt with seem like they wouldn’t have been exacerbated in an adult film environment. Also it seems like the rate and severity of sexual abuse would almost certainly be worse in porn.
I imagine that you are correct in speculating that larger studios deal with less of this, but I certainly don’t know.
Indecent is an account of ten years in the sex trade—the author’s experience sounds as though it’s between what you describe and what Jacob describes—bad (mostly because of obnoxious clients) but not horrendous.
Amazon’s first pages look interesting—any chance you have an e-copy? Bittorrent is proving useless.
Google has most of the book—all but the last two chapters. I have a paper copy.
Her Sex and Bacon: Why I Love Things that Are Very, Very Bad for Me is likewise amazing.
The most surprising essay—she talks about the bacon deficiency economy in which restaurants never give you enough bacon, so she cooks and eats four pounds of bacon to be sure she has enough—used to be online, but doesn’t seem to be there any more.
I will tentatively recommend her books to any of the men here who can’t seem to figure out why things keep blowing up when they write about sex, since it seems to me that they have a blank spot in their model of the universe about women having desires and making choices. She’s quite emphatic about the inside of her head.
I’m making massive efforts not to blame the guys—I have some scary blind spots myself, including one that I was at least past 35 before I realized I had. It turned out that I believed women had emotions and men had desires. That is, I believed men wanted things and women had reactions to getting or not getting what they wanted.
What clued me into the blind spot was noticing that men had facial expressions which seemed to indicate emotional reactions, and that I was surprised by this.
Possibly relevant: I was born in 1953-- I hope things were more stereotyped then than they are now, but I don’t think things have completely changed.
Since I made the comment that initiated this latest mini-flare-up, I feel the need to make it clear that I am not myself in that category. I see the non-alignment of desires among humans as a general problem, of which the sex issues discussed above are merely one particular manifestation.
I had actually gotten the impression that you were older than is typical here; and on thinking about it, I suspect it had to do with your first name (which was a lot more popular at around that time than 20-40 years later).
Grasping that non-alignment is a general problem is an important start, but I don’t think it’s the same as understanding what a specific non-alignment is.
It looks like p. 28-333 are not included.
Apologies—I trusted that the chapter links in the drop-down menu meant the chapters were there.
Old comments, but I used to know the author and I feel I should pimp for her—pardon the pun.
It seems to me that when people advocate further criminalizing sex work on this basis they are either dissembling (in the way advocates for professional licensing dissemble that it is about ‘protecting consumers’ because it is more effective than admitting they are trying to protect their own interests) or simply horribly misguided in how best to address the (genuine) problems you describe.