The purpose of this game, admittedly, is to test just how complacent / obedient the Overcoming Bias / Less Wrong community has become.
Think about your assumptions:
First you’ve got “common rationality”. But that’s really a smokescreen to hide the fact that you’re using a utility function and simply, dearly, hoping that everybody else is using the same one as you!
Your second assumption is that “you gain nothing by defecting alone”.
There’s no meaningful sense in which you’re “winning” if everybody guesses zero and you do too. The only purpose of it, the only reward you receive for guessing 0 and ‘winning’, is the satisfaction that you dutifully followed instructions and submitted the ‘correct’ answer according to game theory and the arguments put forth by upper echelons of the Less Wrong community.
In fact, there is much to gain by guessing a non-zero number. First of all, it costs nothing to play. Right away, all of your game theory and rationalization is tossed right out the window. It is of no cost to submit an answer of 100, or even to submit several answers of 100. Your theory of games can’t account for this—if people get multiple guesses, submitted from different accounts, you’ll be pretty silly with your submission of 0 as an answer.
“But that would be cheating.” Well, no. See, the game is a cheat. It’s to test “Aumann’s agreement theorem” among this community here. It’s to test whether or not you will follow instructions and run with the herd, buying into garbage about a ‘common rationality’ and ‘unique solutions’, ‘utility functions’ and such.
You see, for me at least, there’s great value in defecting. You of course will try to scare people into believing they’re defecting alone, but here you’re presupposing the results of the experiment—that everybody else is dutifully following instructions. So anyway, I would be greatly pleased if the result turned out to be a non-zero number. It would restore my faith in this community, actually. And to that end, I would submit a high number...
I think that you are profoundly mistaken about the attitudes and dispositions of the vast majority here. You appear to be new, so that’s understandable. As you look around, though, you’ll find a wide array of opinions on the limits of causal decision theory, the aptness of utility functions for describing or prescribing human action, and other topics you assume must be dogma for a community calling itself ‘rationalist’. You might even experience the uncomfortable realization that other people already agree with some of the brilliant revelations about rationality that you’ve derived.
I was an avid visitor of Overcoming Bias, but yes I am new to Less Wrong. I had assumed that the general feel of this place would be similar to Overcoming Bias—much of which was very dogmatic, although there were a few notable voices of dissent (several of whom were censored and even banned).
You might even experience the uncomfortable realization that other people already agree with some of the brilliant revelations about rationality that you’ve derived.
Obviously. But there wouldn’t be a point to my lecturing them, now would there? No, conchis made the canonical argument and I responded. And if you weren’t so uncomfortable with my dissent you might have left a real response, instead of this patronizing and sarcastic analysis.
That’s the problem with the internet: “I’m witty and incisive, you’re sarcastic and sanctimonious”. I’ll admit the tenor of my last sentence was out of line; but I stand by the assertion that your psychoanalysis of this group is well off the mark.
Also, what exactly is so awful about a group norm of playing certain games seriously even when for zero stakes, in order to gather interesting information about the group dynamics of aspiring rationalists?
“I’m witty and incisive, you’re sarcastic and sanctimonious”
Pretty much nails it. pswoo’s initial comment was fairly patronizing itself, so it seems a bit rich to criticise you (orthonormal) for playing along. But whatever.
By way of substantive response. Um, yeah. So, patronizing bits aside, I agree with much of your (pswoo’s) comment. I just don’t think it was especially relevant to the particular conversation you (pswoo) intervened in, which was about the validity of the standard argument rather than its soundness.
The purpose of this game, admittedly, is to test just how complacent / obedient the Overcoming Bias / Less Wrong community has become.
Think about your assumptions:
First you’ve got “common rationality”. But that’s really a smokescreen to hide the fact that you’re using a utility function and simply, dearly, hoping that everybody else is using the same one as you!
Your second assumption is that “you gain nothing by defecting alone”.
There’s no meaningful sense in which you’re “winning” if everybody guesses zero and you do too. The only purpose of it, the only reward you receive for guessing 0 and ‘winning’, is the satisfaction that you dutifully followed instructions and submitted the ‘correct’ answer according to game theory and the arguments put forth by upper echelons of the Less Wrong community.
In fact, there is much to gain by guessing a non-zero number. First of all, it costs nothing to play. Right away, all of your game theory and rationalization is tossed right out the window. It is of no cost to submit an answer of 100, or even to submit several answers of 100. Your theory of games can’t account for this—if people get multiple guesses, submitted from different accounts, you’ll be pretty silly with your submission of 0 as an answer.
“But that would be cheating.” Well, no. See, the game is a cheat. It’s to test “Aumann’s agreement theorem” among this community here. It’s to test whether or not you will follow instructions and run with the herd, buying into garbage about a ‘common rationality’ and ‘unique solutions’, ‘utility functions’ and such.
You see, for me at least, there’s great value in defecting. You of course will try to scare people into believing they’re defecting alone, but here you’re presupposing the results of the experiment—that everybody else is dutifully following instructions. So anyway, I would be greatly pleased if the result turned out to be a non-zero number. It would restore my faith in this community, actually. And to that end, I would submit a high number...
If I were to play.
I think that you are profoundly mistaken about the attitudes and dispositions of the vast majority here. You appear to be new, so that’s understandable. As you look around, though, you’ll find a wide array of opinions on the limits of causal decision theory, the aptness of utility functions for describing or prescribing human action, and other topics you assume must be dogma for a community calling itself ‘rationalist’. You might even experience the uncomfortable realization that other people already agree with some of the brilliant revelations about rationality that you’ve derived.
I was an avid visitor of Overcoming Bias, but yes I am new to Less Wrong. I had assumed that the general feel of this place would be similar to Overcoming Bias—much of which was very dogmatic, although there were a few notable voices of dissent (several of whom were censored and even banned).
Obviously. But there wouldn’t be a point to my lecturing them, now would there? No, conchis made the canonical argument and I responded. And if you weren’t so uncomfortable with my dissent you might have left a real response, instead of this patronizing and sarcastic analysis.
That’s the problem with the internet: “I’m witty and incisive, you’re sarcastic and sanctimonious”. I’ll admit the tenor of my last sentence was out of line; but I stand by the assertion that your psychoanalysis of this group is well off the mark.
Also, what exactly is so awful about a group norm of playing certain games seriously even when for zero stakes, in order to gather interesting information about the group dynamics of aspiring rationalists?
Pretty much nails it. pswoo’s initial comment was fairly patronizing itself, so it seems a bit rich to criticise you (orthonormal) for playing along. But whatever.
By way of substantive response. Um, yeah. So, patronizing bits aside, I agree with much of your (pswoo’s) comment. I just don’t think it was especially relevant to the particular conversation you (pswoo) intervened in, which was about the validity of the standard argument rather than its soundness.
I will be very surprised if more than half of the answers are 0.